Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[gypsyjim]

not sure how this incident is similar, but I didn't read very far into the discussion. It seems that Mia went under without the BC (and tank, regs, etc.) attached to her, and then became separated from the BC at some point leaving her with no gas to breathe.

Reading a few pages into the thread it seems she was wearing her own wing, dry suit and tank, but had surfaced and asked for a second tank so she could complete her required safety stop. She was handed a second bc with tank, from what I read, and she re-descended to do the safety stop with this extra bc and tank in her hands. It was this extra BC that floated to the surface.

There was some discussion of the old style back plates that contained glass beads and lead shot (I believe that was what they were discussing anyway), which had a history of the lead shot "clumping", and being difficult to dump. (My youngest brother used to dive such a rig, and that clumping was a problem if the lead and glass were not removed and rinsed very very regularly, but I did not see exactly where that was leading in this story.)

I did not have time to read the entire thread during my lunch, but this fatality was similar at least in that it was an unexplained death of a very well known, and extremely experienced and respected female diver, who often dived solo as part of her job.

 

[nimoh]

Reading a few pages into the thread it seems she was wearing her own wing, dry suit and tank, but had surfaced and asked for a second tank so she could complete her required safety stop. She was handed a second bc with tank, from what I read, and she re-descended to do the safety stop with this extra bc and tank in her hands. It was this extra BC that floated to the surface.

There was some discussion of the old style back plates that contained glass beads and lead shot (I believe that was what they were discussing anyway), which had a history of the lead shot "clumping", and being difficult to dump. (My youngest brother used to dive such a rig, and that clumping was a problem if the lead and glass were not removed and rinsed very very regularly, but I did not see exactly where that was leading in this story.)

I did not have time to read the entire thread during my lunch, but this fatality was similar at least in that it was an unexplained death of a very well known, and extremely experienced and respected female diver, who often dived solo as part of her job.

thanks, I should have read more before commenting

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I have been a lurker in here and watched this thread from its beginning.

We have had many comments on how long this thread has become. We have seen tangents taken down roads of quite possibly wild speculations. I'm not saying that this is bad, I think the fact that this tragedy has made divers think and re-think their own dive practices was the spirit in which these kinds of threads are intended to be useful

It seems to me that with the lack of information starting to frustrate people again we are about to take another dramatic turn into left field. By Comparing two Tragic deaths where the similarities beetween the actual Facts of the cases are loose strings destined to unravel over time.

Thank you D_B for pointing out the other thread, I think it may be very pertinant to the discussion reagrding Drysuits and Lift, but I think everyone has missed the point that there is no evidence of this actually being a problem in this case. It has been discussed to the point that a New Thread has been started about it and perhaps the comparison of the Theorys regarding the death of Quero and the Facts in the death in San Diego May be better discussed there.

As we see in the post from scubadada the facts have been clouded in the mire of speculation and theorising so I will summarize

Prior to the events of that Day Posts and coments were made by Quero regarding
1) Dificulties experianced arround the new Drysuit (However its worth noting She had dived sucessfully while wearing this suit prior to the dive in question.
2) How to tweak her set up because of point #1 (Yes the new tweaks "may" have had somthing to do with the incident but there is no evidence it did)
3) She complained of leg pains (Again it "may" be related to some medical cause but there is no evidence it did)

On the dive in question..... I am combinding the info from posts # 83, 104, 113, 114, 120, 123

The dive site was fairly benign – with good conditions and good viz.
There were four divers in the water on Monday. One chose to move away from the group at various times (Presumably Quero)
Near the end of the dive, the group surfaced, presumably to get a bearing on the exact exit point.
On the surface, the group was somewhat separated, but communicating. (Quero Said she had 50 Bar)
One of the divers told Quero to come close to the group while on the surface. The response was she was fine and will meet them on the sand
The group descended, presumably because the swim to the exit point was easier underwater.
eventually seperating herself from the group of two she was with and Quero swam past the third diver
At some point during the swim in, Quero got further separated from the group.
Shortly after becoming separated, the group of 2 surfaced #1 & 2 began looking for bubbles when they first exited the water-this is the norm for them. They could not locate bubbles. When diver #3 surfaced (rebreather diver) he was immediately asked if he saw/knew where Quero was.
Searching for Quero Immediatly started once the seperation was recognised (While still in the water).
Two members of the group immediately started a search, a third went to shore for help.
One of the group found her shortly after, motionless on the bottom. Time lapse between separation was approximately 10-15 minutes.
Quero was found near the dive exit. Im taking 2mtr to 5mtrs of water, depending on where you are. Ordinarily its a easy incline along a sandy bottom with sea grass towards a rocky shore. Depending on tide you can swim to the shore or flat rock hop to get to land.
She was brought to the surface, and In Water Rescue Breaths were given.
With the assistance of people from the boat, she was brought to shore.
CPR was being performed when Ambulance arrived and took over.



All gear appeared to have been functioning properly during the dive.
She did not show signs of distress or physical ailment during the dive, up until the point of separation.
There were no known medical issues.
It appears that she swam away from the group, for unknown reasons.
Upon realization, the group immediately started a search and found her relatively quickly.
All attempts at resuscitation failed.






All other information as I have been able to understand in this thread has been the matter of Speculation

The amount of weight was stated as fact but latter found to be an estimate (anyone who has lifted an unconcious or dead body knows they feel heavier than normal) Actual weight requires the Police to reliquish her equipment and Autopsy Report

The Tank was empty when Quero was found may be a fact but the theory she ran out of air is not we have no way of knowing if she died or had problems before or after the tank emptied (purged) or in fact how it came to be empty.

The Readings said 10 Bar, the asumption the readings are/were incorect would require the Police to release the Dive Gear.

ClownfishSydney has had the oportunity to look at two dive computers, but I for one don't think he has seen the ONLY computer which has any Factual bearing on what hapned to Quero (Hers) because the Police are still in control of it.

Pictures of her in her gear are all Prior to the incident in question. As no one saw what hapned no one took the only picture which would tell us what hapned. The closest thing we have is her dive computer which the Police yet retain.

Until the Police release an official report we will likely get no more pertinant Facts than those already given.

No ofence to anyone who wrote a theory, I found them enlightning "Posabilities" but not factual. I was amazed people would go so far as to atempt a theoretical calculation as to amout of air ect. However I feel it important (for the clarity of the thread) to point out that using somone elses dive computer and somone elses breathing rates to calcculate Queros exact situation is imposible. It is Theory only, and anyone trying to pass it off as factual is in actuality misrepresenting the facts. I thank those who theorised in this thread for clearly pointing out what was theory... it helped me a lot to seperate them from the actual events that day

Jax said it best

"Jax # 113

Who is to say that whatever happened in the moments of separation could have been prevented?

It's really important to not go down the "if only" ramp, because it leads to "should've, could've, ought to've" that no one could forsee."


I myself am now waiting to hear either directly from the dive buddies or from the police investigative report.... anyything else is speculation. I dont think I missed anything, but I didnt have time to re-read 76 Pages.

 

[diverrex]

Nice summary. I'm starting to think we might never know what happened. To better understand certain possibilities I think would require an actual test of someone of similar body size and type, drysuit, wing and the amount of weight she was using to see if drysuit lift was or was not needed to get positive, or at least a simple test of could her wing float her weights.

Still very hard for me to imagine her not being able to surface and stay there but I'm not willing to jump to an assumption of a medical condition causing it without being supported by the autopsy.

And still a very big lesson for all of us to never be complacent until out of the water. I know I have reconsidered some of my practices.

 

[gypsyjim]

I have been a lurker in here and watched this thread from its beginning.

We have had many comments on how long this thread has become. We have seen tangents taken down roads of quite possibly wild speculations. I'm not saying that this is bad, I think the fact that this tragedy has made divers think and re-think their own dive practices was the spirit in which these kinds of threads are intended to be useful

It seems to me that with the lack of information starting to frustrate people again we are about to take another dramatic turn into left field. By Comparing two Tragic deaths where the similarities beetween the actual Facts of the cases are loose strings destined to unravel over time.

Thank you D_B for pointing out the other thread, I think it may be very pertinant to the discussion reagrding Drysuits and Lift, but I think everyone has missed the point that there is no evidence of this actually being a problem in this case. It has been discussed to the point that a New Thread has been started about it and perhaps the comparison of the Theorys regarding the death of Quero and the Facts in the death in San Diego May be better discussed there.

As we see in the post from scubadada the facts have been clouded in the mire of speculation and theorising so I will summarize

Prior to the events of that Day Posts and coments were made by Quero regarding
1) Dificulties experianced arround the new Drysuit (However its worth noting She had dived sucessfully while wearing this suit prior to the dive in question.
2) How to tweak her set up because of point #1 (Yes the new tweaks "may" have had somthing to do with the incident but there is no evidence it did)
3) She complained of leg pains (Again it "may" be related to some medical cause but there is no evidence it did)

On the dive in question..... I am combinding the info from posts # 83, 104, 113, 114, 120, 123

The dive site was fairly benign – with good conditions and good viz.
There were four divers in the water on Monday. One chose to move away from the group at various times (Presumably Quero)
Near the end of the dive, the group surfaced, presumably to get a bearing on the exact exit point.
On the surface, the group was somewhat separated, but communicating. (Quero Said she had 50 Bar)
One of the divers told Quero to come close to the group while on the surface. The response was she was fine and will meet them on the sand
The group descended, presumably because the swim to the exit point was easier underwater.
eventually seperating herself from the group of two she was with and Quero swam past the third diver
At some point during the swim in, Quero got further separated from the group.
Shortly after becoming separated, the group of 2 surfaced #1 & 2 began looking for bubbles when they first exited the water-this is the norm for them. They could not locate bubbles. When diver #3 surfaced (rebreather diver) he was immediately asked if he saw/knew where Quero was.
Searching for Quero Immediatly started once the seperation was recognised (While still in the water).
Two members of the group immediately started a search, a third went to shore for help.
One of the group found her shortly after, motionless on the bottom. Time lapse between separation was approximately 10-15 minutes.
Quero was found near the dive exit. Im taking 2mtr to 5mtrs of water, depending on where you are. Ordinarily its a easy incline along a sandy bottom with sea grass towards a rocky shore. Depending on tide you can swim to the shore or flat rock hop to get to land.
She was brought to the surface, and In Water Rescue Breaths were given.
With the assistance of people from the boat, she was brought to shore.
CPR was being performed when Ambulance arrived and took over.



All gear appeared to have been functioning properly during the dive.
She did not show signs of distress or physical ailment during the dive, up until the point of separation.
There were no known medical issues.
It appears that she swam away from the group, for unknown reasons.
Upon realization, the group immediately started a search and found her relatively quickly.
All attempts at resuscitation failed.






All other information as I have been able to understand in this thread has been the matter of Speculation

The amount of weight was stated as fact but latter found to be an estimate (anyone who has lifted an unconcious or dead body knows they feel heavier than normal) Actual weight requires the Police to reliquish her equipment and Autopsy Report

The Tank was empty when Quero was found may be a fact but the theory she ran out of air is not we have no way of knowing if she died or had problems before or after the tank emptied (purged) or in fact how it came to be empty.

The Readings said 10 Bar, the asumption the readings are/were incorect would require the Police to release the Dive Gear.

ClownfishSydney has had the oportunity to look at two dive computers, but I for one don't think he has seen the ONLY computer which has any Factual bearing on what hapned to Quero (Hers) because the Police are still in control of it.

Pictures of her in her gear are all Prior to the incident in question. As no one saw what hapned no one took the only picture which would tell us what hapned. The closest thing we have is her dive computer which the Police yet retain.

Until the Police release an official report we will likely get no more pertinant Facts than those already given.

No ofence to anyone who wrote a theory, I found them enlightning "Posabilities" but not factual. I was amazed people would go so far as to atempt a theoretical calculation as to amout of air ect. However I feel it important (for the clarity of the thread) to point out that using somone elses dive computer and somone elses breathing rates to calcculate Queros exact situation is imposible. It is Theory only, and anyone trying to pass it off as factual is in actuality misrepresenting the facts. I thank those who theorised in this thread for clearly pointing out what was theory... it helped me a lot to seperate them from the actual events that day

Jax said it best

"Jax # 113

Who is to say that whatever happened in the moments of separation could have been prevented?

It's really important to not go down the "if only" ramp, because it leads to "should've, could've, ought to've" that no one could forsee."


I myself am now waiting to hear either directly from the dive buddies or from the police investigative report.... anyything else is speculation. I dont think I missed anything, but I didnt have time to re-read 76 Pages.

In some ways you seem to be spot on.

A lot of erroneous, or purely imagined information, as we have often seen in this thread is of little value in discovering the true cause of Marcia's death. Speculation is simply that: speculation. Possibly it may be a way to get everyone thinking, and re-evaluating their own diving, but will not provide real answers to the 'why' or 'how' of this accident.

As I understand it Quero was using weights that she borrowed from a few of the other divers, and at this point no one involved directly still even knows what weight she was actually carrying on that dive, and they/we will not know that until the police release her gear. That has not happened yet.

The same applies also to Marcia's computer.

Any info garnered from computers other than Quero's own on that dive will provide very little of value, since she was often separated from the three other divers. Again, speculation is just wild-assed guessing, and has little actual value.

Like many others in this thread, I am not convinced that we will ever know the actual cause of this accidental death, at least in part because local police are usually only interested in determining whether a death is deliberate or accidental, and may or may not be prepared to follow an investigation "all the way", once they determine that the death was accidental. We, as divers hope for much more detailed results from an investigation of the death of one of our own, (and of such a well respected person as Marcia) than the typical police investigation needs to produce. At least that is my understanding.

None of this means that there is no value to us all in talking and sharing our thoughts, as it probably does help us all to both mourn another diver's passing, and to also try to learn some lessons, and gain some small value from her passing. We just need to remember there is little of value toward understanding the accident in wild-assed speculation, uninformed guessing and playing amatuer detective with imaginary, or imagined facts.

 

[Madacub]

Mostlyharmless, post # 753. Thank you very much for the summary. It was sorely needed and I was at the point of asking one of the posters from Sydney if they would kindly do something like that. All the theories are fine, but since some of the "factual" information came out in bits and pieces, I needed a recap. Thanks again.

 

[t4e]

I just tuned in. Wow, over 700 posts and people are blaming a very experienced diver in shallow water dying because of her camera? The stupidity of the "regulars" boggles me. It was obviously a medical condition. Sorry for the braggarts who want a teaching moment, but an excellent diver like Marcia wouldn't have died for a stupid reason.

what is your source?

 

[D_B]

wow .. just found this, the part about Mia Tegner's weight, wing and drysuit and lift .. is very interesting and I think pertains to this discussion
Another San Diego Tragedy... [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network

not sure how this incident is similar, but I didn't read very far into the discussion. It seems that Mia went under without the BC (and tank, regs, etc.) attached to her, and then became separated from the BC at some point leaving her with no gas to breathe.

as I read the report, she was wearing her BC with integrated weights , and took another tank , bare, down with her.
I think this has in common with Marcia's death .. A well experienced diver, dysuit, out of air, but mostly, this part , from the ME's report ...

BUOYANCY CONTROL

The decedent was diving with 40.5 pounds of weight in her buoyancy control system. When the recovery team attempted to bring her system to the surface, they orally inflated the system to it's fullest capacity. The system remained on the ocean floor and had to be physically propelled to the surface.

and this , from a comment:

From reading the report, it would appear that being overweighted, and then not being able to dump the weight when she lost the bouyancy of the suit when the tank ran out was the main cause of the accident.

I'm pointing to the lift of the wing not being able to support the rig
not that we know that this is factor here, or even there .. something to think about though

(didnt see the reference to my post/link before I posted this)

 

[clownfishsydney]

The summary is reasonably accurate, although there is other information that some of us are privy to that has not been included. I still hope to be able to post a full and detailed description of what happened.

Re using a computer other than Marcia's to calculate air consumption, this is easily possible as she had to have been within a half metre or so of the other divers in depth for the whole dive due to the nature of the dive site. Therefore, the figures I posted before are going to be accurate enough, it is just not knowing when she ran out of air that will affect the figures I gave.

Why I posted it was to show that if her consumption was anything higher than what I posted, she certainly would run out of air. I think I also posted that I would not expect a new drysuit diver to use less than the consumption I worked out and that therefore it was somewhat inevitable that she would run out.

 

[altaskier]

Diving a dry suit is not hard, however, there are lots of little gotchas that you don't learn until you dive one for a while. My gotcha was having most of my weight attached to the backplate harness. Seemed to make sense until I had to remove the rig at depth to disentangle myself as part of a solo course. Looked like a balloon attached to the rig. Could not get back into my gear and had to surface holding the rig in front of me. If this had happened at depth for real and I had to abandon the rig i would go up like a rocket. Now I have a balance of weight on a belt and the BC so if I have to separate from the rig I and it are roughly balanced.

I had 40-50 dives in a drysuit before I started to think about a scenario like this. I now dive with some weight on my belt.