Rumor control - DM logged dive requirements?

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Yes, if the customer is more experienced than the DM, they are not going to pay for him as a guide. If the customer is less experienced then you want someone who can handle trouble. Only DMs who have been around a bit know how to head off trouble before rescue training is needed.

I am fairly confident when I complete my DM training my shop will happily let me volunteer to fill cylinders, maintain the website and get free cylinder fills when I join DSD and OW classes.

When I travel, I often dive with DM's who have less overall experience than I do. I am not hiring them for their experience ... I'm hiring them for local knowledge ... which they have more of than I do. Their primary value to me is to help me get the most value out of my dive time by choosing appropriately interesting dive sites, and helping me locate and recognize local critters.

If a DM can do those things, I really don't care how many dives he or she has.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
There's a lot more to being a DM than skills. Judgment is a huge component, and in scuba diving as in a lot of other activities, you acquire good judgment over time by experiencing things and integrating how to respond to them into your skill set.

There's a big difference between getting certified as a DM and getting a job as a DM.

I think the entry requirements for DM training should be considerably raised. Not just the dive count.... but also the introduction of a formal pre-assessment before training can commence....

If I was Mr.Padi course designer.... this is what I would institute....

1. Basic Scuba Skills. DM pre-candidate should perform the 20 basic skills, scoring no less than 3 on any skill (passing score for graduation should be raised to 5

2. Assessed Rescue. DM pre-candidate should perform a rescue assessment satisfactorily prior to entering the program.

3. Assessed Independant Dive. DM pre-candidate should demonstrate the ability to properly plan and conduct a recreational dive, without assistance. This should include a reasonable pre-dive risk assessment, highlight general awareness of factors present on the dive along with prudent contigency and emergency planning.

4. Swim Tests. DM pre-candidate should complete the current DM swim tests, but as a pre-cursor to starting (not finishing) training.

5. Basic Entry Exam. Consisting of elements taken from the OW, AOW and Rescue courses. along with dive planning/tables use.
across the board).

These pre-requirements would do nothing more than establish that the DM Candidate was at an appropriate level to start training.. in terms of personal fitness, knowledge and skills retention from previous training and basic dive ability.

It would however, put a positive onus on the candidate to prepare themselves for the training course, establish the right attitude from day 1...and prevent sub-standard divers from entering a professional level training program.

I wish.... oh, how I wish...........
 
There are minimum requirements for everything today. I have 140 dives and hope to begin DM soon. But the last 60 or so were shallow (30 feet, etc.) due to a number of reasons. It's like getting a H.S. diploma or college degree. You have to meet the minimum requirements or you don't get it. It doesn't mean you're good at what you do.
 
There's a big difference between getting certified as a DM and getting a job as a DM.

I think the entry requirements for DM training should be considerably raised. Not just the dive count.... but also the introduction of a formal pre-assessment before training can commence....

If I was Mr.Padi course designer.... this is what I would institute....

1. Basic Scuba Skills. DM pre-candidate should perform the 20 basic skills, scoring no less than 3 on any skill (passing score for graduation should be raised to 5

2. Assessed Rescue. DM pre-candidate should perform a rescue assessment satisfactorily prior to entering the program.

3. Assessed Independant Dive. DM pre-candidate should demonstrate the ability to properly plan and conduct a recreational dive, without assistance. This should include a reasonable pre-dive risk assessment, highlight general awareness of factors present on the dive along with prudent contigency and emergency planning.

4. Swim Tests. DM pre-candidate should complete the current DM swim tests, but as a pre-cursor to starting (not finishing) training.

5. Basic Entry Exam. Consisting of elements taken from the OW, AOW and Rescue courses. along with dive planning/tables use.
across the board).

These pre-requirements would do nothing more than establish that the DM Candidate was at an appropriate level to start training.. in terms of personal fitness, knowledge and skills retention from previous training and basic dive ability.

It would however, put a positive onus on the candidate to prepare themselves for the training course, establish the right attitude from day 1...and prevent sub-standard divers from entering a professional level training program.

I wish.... oh, how I wish...........

This DM-Candidate would support a change like you propose.
 
3. Assessed Independant Dive. DM pre-candidate should demonstrate the ability to properly plan and conduct a recreational dive, without assistance. This should include a reasonable pre-dive risk assessment, highlight general awareness of factors present on the dive along with prudent contigency and emergency planning.

Amen!

I can't tell you how many DM candidates couldn't lead a team of divers safely, under their guidance and supervision, through a dive. I won't give OW Session sign off until I see them able to do this.

Too many divers have done nothing but follow, then suddenly expect to be a leader under the water. Certainly this is possible as we've all made that transition, but I don't want a DM candidate, or worse a DM, learning this while taking care of students.
 
Given that an OW diver can dive independantly...

..and then goes on to gain AOW and Rescue skills...

...all whilst supposedly independant of an instructor/divemaster...

I would want them to demonstrate their ability to dive BEFORE being formally allowed to begin DM training.

If they can't lead themselves, then they aren't ready to learn how to lead others.

Such a standard, would encourage potential DMs to spend some time developing their diving, planning their dives properly and taking more responsibility, in general, if they were planning on enrolling in a DM class.
 
There's a lot more to being a DM than skills. Judgment is a huge component, and in scuba diving as in a lot of other activities, you acquire good judgment over time by experiencing things and integrating how to respond to them into your skill set.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Exactly my point. The number of dives is not relevant at 60 or 100 and unless they want to limit the total number of DMs then neither would 200 be an accurate measure of DM competence.

I have always found it interesting that people claim that the courses do not train individuals and that unsupervised "experience" is required, but at the same time they claim that no amount of experience is sufficient if you are not trained in a course.

people are capable of learning, and the current pre-requisites are fine, if people have an issue with DMs that have passed the course and are not competent then maybe the course should be looked at not some random number of dives before you take the course.
 
It has to be both - training and 'doing'.

Any training course should provide you with the skills and knowledge to do a particular activity. However, only by doing that activity do you then become competant at it.

Anyone fresh out of training, who has not yet had the opportunity (or subsequently not taken the opportunity) to engage in utilising that training cannot be considered competant at that activity. They have not applied that knowledge and become proficient in using it.

Specifically with scuba diving, all entry-level divers should equipped with the skills and knowledge to operate as complete, functional divers, independant of professional supervision. However, the overwhelming trend is for those divers to hop from course to course (under the supervision of an instructor) or to only go on escorted fun dives (under the supervision and guidance of a divemaster).

The greater majority of scuba divers - regardless of the number of years they have dived, or the number of dives they have completed, have never been in a situation where they were the most experienced diver in the team and had taken complete responsibility for themselves.

When some of these divers subsequently enrol on professional level courses, their lack of experience applying the training, they have previously recieved, becomes instantly apparant. As such, the DM course has to achieve the dual goals of training them to become a basically competant independant diver AND a dive leader. As such, the effectiveness of that training course is diluted and the end product is considerably weaker.

SailNaked is correct to ascertain that simply raising the minimum requirement of dives for entry to the course is somewhat pointless. What matters is that the diver has done a sufficient number of independant dives to have applied the training they have recieved on previous courses and developed the ability and confidence to dive effectively without supervision and guidance.

As such, only a pre-course assessment of ability would determine and guaranee that a diver had gained the requisite knowledge and experience for DM training.

However, when one looks at the training pre-requisites for entry on a DM course (OW, AOW and Rescue) we can see that it only accounts for 12 dives. Leaving the diver with only 8 dives to be completed before they could enrol on DM training. There is no way, regardless of the divers personal ability, that 8 dives (even of high quality and independant of supervision) could supply them with sufficient opportunity to have applied and ingrained the skills they had learned on courses. In addition, such little in-water experience will not have provided them with sufficient variables and events to have developed their overall breadth of experience, judgement, and ability to recognise problems and engage effective problem-solving skills to deal with them.

As such, the current dive pre-requisite is ludicrously low. It allows a ratio of training dives to independant dives of 3/1. A more appropriate training/independant ratio would be 1/8 (hence 96 dive overall requirement...rounded up to 100 dives!).

100 Dives for DM training. I agree with that!
 
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I have always found it interesting that people claim that the courses do not train individuals and that unsupervised "experience" is required, but at the same time they claim that no amount of experience is sufficient if you are not trained in a course.

There is a strong logic behind those peoples' beliefs....

A scuba course will teach you a set of skills. However, it takes time and experience to develop the capacity to apply those skills.

Without doing a course, you have no skills to apply. You may not even be aware of what specific skills are required. Even if you self-aquire those skills, you have no benchmark from which to gauge whether you are performing those skills correctly.

It boils down to the vast difference between possession of knowledge and the application of knowledge.
 
DD agreed. I also see people saying that people should not be allowed to progress to the next class because they do not have enough experience.

And I absolutely agree that some people take courses one after the other and that 20 dives to be a dive master is not much, however that is the min to take the course and I think you still need 50 to complete it but I do not know how that works. either way if 20 is the min to take the course then the course should teach you everything you need to know everything you need to do to be a beginning DM. not an expert DM ready for instructor but a beginning DM and if the course is not doing that then it should be revised.

is 50 dives in a Quarry the same as 50 boat dives 25 miles off shore? is a lake of 10 acres the same as the pacific north west shore diving? is 50 dives in clear warm water @50ft the same as 50 dives in 50 degree water to 120 on murky wrecks.

Experience is what you get when you have no idea what you are doing. Training is to prevent experience from happening. ( I know I destroyed the quote ).

If by experience you mean the Oh **** moments, then you may have 1000 dives before you have a sufficient number of those moments to be qualified to do anything.

I would support stronger course standards for passing before I would support higher meaningless prerequisites. it should never be said that a fully trained DM is not competent to do his job. It should also not be possible for basic OW graduates to be a danger to themselves, the reefs and others but I guess that would be in the standards of passing the IDC.
 
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