Rumor control - DM logged dive requirements?

[joolz]

Thought about posting this in the instructor's forum, but figured this thread is already here...we'll see how many flames it generates.

After reading through that long and tedious thread about the guy whose 11 year old son did his first scuba "lesson" with his dad instead of an instructor or DM, the thing that I found most troubling were comments from DMs basically saying "standards are ridiculous and I choose to ignore them because I know better". This got me thinking that maybe it's not just the experience requirement that's lacking in the DM program.

The DM program glosses over the key standards, but doesn't go into depth about why they exist or the liability to which you and/or your LDS are exposed if you choose to violate them deliberately. You don't get into this until the IDC, at which point (for me at least) you really start to appreciate the balance between good judgment and legal liability, and the extent to which your agency can protect you as long as you stay within the established parameters. While admittedly some of the training standards can be modified by way of the "adapting to local conditions" clause, others -- like ratios and supervision -- are fairly unambiguous. There's a big difference between modifying a standard and violating it, and for many things, instructors have quite a bit of latitude.

While I expect a lot of negative comments from non-professionals when you bring up standards -- I believe were were referred to as "shysters and bureaucrats" in the aforementioned thread -- I find it disappointing when other professionals display a clear lack of appreciation for why we have them in the first place and how the standards are there to protect them as well as the students under their supervision. I think it would be in the agencies' best interest to move the risk management module from the IDC to the DM program so at least there's a rudimentary understanding of why the standards exist and why it's a DM's responsibility to uphold them. DMs are, after all, professionals representing their agency.

As for the other thread, I'm staying out of it since it's reminding me why I stopped reading the board 2 years ago. After sifting through all the info, I think the instructor could probably argue that he and his DM were close enough to supervise at all times since it's a 40' pool, even if it's not the interpretation of "direct supervision" that I would choose. Whether PADI would back him up on this, I have no idea...and hopefully he won't need to find out the hard way.

Julian

 

[SubMariner]

My wife, who is a high school teacher, really turns her nose up at the idea of a Dive Master as being a professional. She equates the DM role in the class as the dive world equivilant of the classroom volunteer. They don't even rise to the level of a student teacher (who is allowed to teach any part of the curriculum while under indirect supervision of the teacher to whom they are assigned.)

PADI DM's are at best para-professionals. And that is even something of a stretch. The DM is there to schlep tanks, give a tour of the local area, answer basic questions, and keep folks busy till the instructor gets around to them.

They're the cruise director, concierge and entertainment. The most important role is to schlep tanks and gear. Not many dives are required to be able to do that well.

Not many just out of school DM's are going to be put in a position where they are in charge of someone's life - and if they are, that's a total failure on the business hiring them, not on the DM or the DM program. Architect's just out of 6 year's of collage and a couple of summers of internships still don't get to design a bridge all by themselves for a reason.

I don't know if you are a DM or an Instructor (or your wife's level of dive experience) but if that is ALL that is required of the DMs you know then they are being under utilized, under trained, and under appreciated.

NONE of the DMs we have trained have been treated like that. They are assigned tasks commensurate with their experience level as well as some that help them grow as divers and dive pros. They are treated as valued members of our dive team, which is exactly what they are. If we can't mentor them to the point where they can be treated as such, then they are encouraged to reconsider their goals as DMs.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

Have you seen the standards Padi has for certifying a divemaster? They're pretty remedial from the standpoint that you're provided 40-60 dive repetitions to polish off simple key elements like buoyancy control, trim, and an efficient kick. The rest is fairly simple... except maybe the physics.

Compare these standards to those of GUEs DIR Fundamentals program and you'll find theirs is far more stringent, demanding mentally and physically, and is only a recreational level.

I don't think what's important is the number of dives, but what the individual takes from the experiences and how they apply it. From an experiential education standpoint, sixty repetitions should be sufficient to achieve these very modest goals in the water.

 

[emoe1973]

There seems to be some slagging going on here, and mostly aimed between the Organization and the Divemaster/trainee themselves.


STOP IT!

argue all you like about the standards, teaching methods and practices and instructor abilities to teach properly, BUT what do you think you're all achieving by demeaning the student DM with the criticism ive read so far??

QUOTE: DM's are BELOW PRO LEVEL? that's nice! how about every DM just buggers off then and leaves the ONE instructor to do all the crap? Are we below par then??

QUOTE: DM's are just tank hods? Yeah! we carry tanks about so that the instructor can do his/her job!

I REALLY hope that i never work for some of the people making these comments, coz ill drop a frikking tank on your toe!

The whole Thread was about whether the DIVE REQUIREMENTS was enough. not about whether DM's are SUB HUMAN scrotes that don't deserve a Padi Pro rating!


MY OPINION? Our school demands that you have dived with the Instructor a few times to evaluate your level of competence PRIOR to signing you up. If you go somewhere else because they think you're not ready then Off you go! They would rather loose you than train a SUB STANDARD DM.

So regardless of dive numbers, it comes down to ABILITY AND CONFIDENCE/COMPETENCE!

Someone with 50 dives can be a good diver, safe, responsible and clear headed.
Ive dived with some that have 100+ dives that are jackasses!

Ill get off my soap box now!!

 

[SubMariner]

Have you seen the standards Padi has for certifying a divemaster? They're pretty remedial from the standpoint that you're provided 40-60 dive repetitions to polish off simple key elements like buoyancy control, trim, and an efficient kick. The rest is fairly simple... except maybe the physics.

Compare these standards to those of GUEs DIR Fundamentals program and you'll find theirs is far more stringent, demanding mentally and physically, and is only a recreational level.

I don't think what's important is the number of dives, but what the individual takes from the experiences and how they apply it. From an experiential education standpoint, sixty repetitions should be sufficient to achieve these very modest goals in the water.

I agree in part with I don't think what's important is the number of dives, but what the individual takes from the experiences and how they apply it . However, with all due respect I don't believe you have enough dive background to comment on a particular agency's standards. It sounds like you may have glanced at a couple of different manuals or heard about "the standards" from someone, but that's about it.

A person's learning curve is as individual as they are; some people are fish the minute they get in the water while others have to work a little harder to achieve mastery. "Numbers of repetitions" is irrelevant.

In any case, that's not what this thread was all about; the actual topic was whether or not PADI was adjusting the number of logged dives required for DMs.

Pax,

 

[RU4SKUBA]

I agree in part with I don't think what's important is the number of dives, but what the individual takes from the experiences and how they apply it . However, with all due respect I don't believe you have enough dive background to comment...

Please... don't suggest "all due respect" if you're going to insult me a sentence later. At least be honest...

I'm not sure I understand your point, or if you do, since it lacks any consistency. You said you agree with part of my statement, but you hastily judge me by the # of dives I have displayed on a website, and then finish with the "number of repetitions (dives) is irrelevant" to people's learning.

I simply stated that since Padi's "20 Basic Scuba Skills for Skill Evaluation" (on page 195 of the Divemaster manual) are mostly remedial then what would adding logged dive requirements achieve if they've long since mastered the skills?

I think that was completely relevant to the thread regardless of who made the comment or whether you like what you hear. And its true... the dreaded fin pivot and much feared regulator to snorkel exchange shouldn't really require more than forty dives to master. If they do then I question the wisdom of that individual becoming a dive professional at any level.

I don't mean to sound like a wave-maker, but how many logged dives does someone need to earn a voice SubMariner?

 

[Joe-Diver]

I simply stated that since Padi's "20 Basic Scuba Skills for Skill Evaluation" (on page 195 of the Divemaster manual) are mostly remedial then what would adding logged dive requirements achieve if they've long since mastered the skills?

Let's just be clear that there is a huge difference between "mastering" the skill, which divers should have straight out of OW....and "demonstration quality", which a DMC must attain during their candidacy.

Now, you are correct in that # of dives logged has absolutely nothing to do with this.

In order to advance the skills to the level of "demonstration quality", a multi-session Skills Workshop is needed, often with more than one attempt at the circuit to earn the necessary scores. Even though a DMC only needs a score of 68 to pass the requirement, we like to see our DMC's get nothing lower than a 4 on each one with many getting a 5. We train to this level. We don't require it to pass of course, just aim for that level.

 

[RonFrank]

Suggesting that the number of dives is meaningless is pointless as agencies use that as a benchmark and IMO they should.

I ran into a guy that was in my OW class while I was diving at a training spot. It was six month since our OW, and he had accelerated his training and was finishing his DM training with the minimal number of dives required, and in under six months from OW~DM.

I asked him to check my air. He turned it off!

That incident may not sum up his entire ability level, but a DM who does not know righty~tighty Lefty~loosy with all his diving done at one spot and mostly doing cert divers is NOT anyone I want to see training without a LOT more dives under his belt. He also needs to figure out On/Off as that could be a huge disaster especially for a new diver.

There is something to be said for experience.

 

[SailNaked]

Lets define what we are talking about when we say a diver has experience. I have been in several classes now, and have a little different perspective. seems that most of our classes everyone is spot on with the class and then there are a few "problem children" the ones that we have to take aside and go over the skills individually.

are the others more experienced? they have had the same training (about 15 minutes worth) and underwater time. but I would expect them to look like divers much faster than the shooters.

what do we mean when we say a "good diver"? all the divers that do not drown are good divers and all the ones that drown are bad, i know this because I read SB

Experience to me, looks like someone that can maintain their buoyancy and are relaxed as they dive, but as far as improved skills, there are not so many levels of improved that are obvious to the naked eye.

I suppose knowing what direction to open a valve would be good to know but how many dives do you need before you learn that? one? a hundred?

20 skills, ok if that was all that there was to diving, even demonstration quality then what is the reason for a higher number of dives? some can learn it in a few minutes some take more time but the skills are the skills, do them, demonstrate them, done.


problem solving is something a DM needs, anticipation, friendly attitude, patience, a strong back, willingness to get the job done safely, rescue skills. I can dive forever and never gain those qualities.

I think basically the number of dives is just to let you learn that you are in an alien environment and to knock the shine off the ads for the Caribbean dive destinations so that you know that this is something you want to do and not a passing fancy.

there is a difference between one year of experience ten times and ten years of experience in most things, I am not of the opinion that you need lots of "experience" in diving to be be a dive master, now if you want to argue life experience then I think the minimum age to be a divemaster is way too low.


I would not expect to have to teach a DM student how to clear his mask but if I had a rescue diver that was a fish with 20 dives and he wanted to be a DM I see no reason not to teach him everything covered in the DM course. he would still have to learn a lot about life and the real world, but he would be qualified to be a DM and each employer would have to make their own decision on hiring him, I would hope it would be based on his talents not his dive count.

I would not be against raising the "Number" to 40, but much more than that is just a waste of peoples time and starts to be elitist.

 

[azchipka]

For me personally I prefer (not require) Dive Master Candidates to enter the course with at least 60 dives already (amount required to complete) and also hold a Master Scuba Diver Level Certification. Additionally I prefer (again not require) that they have had more then one instructor in the past.

In Short my Preference is to see the following of Dive Master Candidates:
• Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Rescue Diver, EFR, & Master Scuba Diver
• 5 Dive Speciality Certifications
• 60 Logged Dives
• Experience in a range of conditions including Deep, Night, and Low Vis environments.

That said I also do not teach the seven day version of the Dive Master Course often. I prefer the internship style of the course. I like to know that when I send a DM out into the world of professional diving they are prepared to be a Dive Master on at a working dive operation. To often Dive Masters become instructor grunts and tank haulers, this is not always because they are a Dive Master but often because they simply do not hold the skills needed to be more than that.

I have seen a number of locations that are no longer hiring anyone under OWSI simply because to many Dive Masters don't have a clue. My mind set is that a Dive Master should be ready to be an Instructor when they come out of there DM course with exception to learning how to teach in the classroom. In to many cases Dive Masters are being certified with out proper exposure to what its like when a real student freaks out on you.

If your goal is to get a Black Card and thats all then cool what difference does it make if you arn't ready to work in the real world in a professional capacity. But if your goal is to be employable as a dive professional it really shouldn't make the least bit of difference if the dive requirement is 20, 40, 60, or 100. The more real world dive experience you have the more employable you become and the better you are at your job.

If you need extra dives go some where tropical for a week with unlimited shore dives and a two boat trips a day.

Down in the keys we see customers come down for a week and do 4 - 5 dives a day for a week straight. Thats 20+ dives in a week plus some fun in the sun.

Its a personal pet pev of mine that it is possible to go from being a non-diver to Scuba Instructor in as little three months, and then you enter the world of being an Instructor with almost no real experience and never having worked with a single student who was not simulated. That is of course if you have the money to drop and can find a instructor who will do it this way and they are out there, ive seen there students.

Take the extra time and go the extra mile and in the long run it will pay off with employability. Simply put your c-card does not tell someone how experienced you are. Ask yourself would you want your mother, wife, sister, girlfriend, boyfriend etc trained by the Instructor who has never before worked with a real life student and only has 100 dives?

@Joe-Diver great to see there are still those of out there who train to real world needs and not just the minimum requirement. Every time I see a Instructor Candidate who falls off the dive boat or can not do a skill like gear removal and replacement I always wonder how they got through there DM program.

In closing like any certification a Dive Master Certification is only as good as the Instructor who issues it. It is possible to have someone who is ready to be in a Dive Master course after 20 Dives but it is rare, its also possible to see someone with will never truly be ready to be a dive master because they lack the ability to be a role model. There is a huge difference these days between someone who has a Dive Master Certification and someone who is what I would consider to be a Dive Master.

Be the best you can be and you will have have succeeded, if the minimum is the best you can do then you are a success. If you are able to do more but do not then you have failed no matter what level certification you hold.