Ron Lee's Personal Rules for Diving in Cozumel

[Quero]

Yea, but what do you care who he watches? You don't need it, right?

I already said I fully expect to be watched, and for various reasons, which have very little to do with my being female.

And for the record, paternalism involves restricting a group's liberty or autonomy for their own good. I didn't hear Ron restrict or suggest restrictions for anyone. It is unfair, in my opinion, to label him as such.

I'm well aware of the meaning of paternalism. And it's entirely fair to label the rule to "Always monitor/watch over women divers" as paternalistic. Anyone who positions himself as someone who "monitors" and "watches over" (not simply "watches" but "watches over" which is very different) the women he encounters while diving, is also, by extension, positioning himself to affect their behavior according to his assessment of what's good (or bad) for them. That's what "monitor" and "watch over" imply.

(of course it might be a bit condescending... Still the idea what Ron said wasn't that bad. Seems like a lot of people are equating 'I watch over the women' with "Get you @#$ back in the kitchen and make me some pie." It simply isn't that severe of a slight to women and attempts to make it so are not intellectually honest.)

I find the attempts to backpedal and say that "Always monitor/watch over women divers" means "Let's watch out for one another" intellectually dishonest. There's no reciprocity in Ron's rule; "watch out for" and "watch over" are nowhere near synonymous.

And as for hyperbole, nobody ever said

Ron is such a evil man

Twisting other people's words like that? Now that's really intellectually dishonest.

 

[cvchief]

I already said I fully expect to be watched, and for different reasons.

True when you condition it. However if you are the Aldora boat with Ron as just an ordinary diver: What do you care who he watches?

I'm well aware of the meaning of paternalism. And it's entirely fair to label the rule to "Always monitor/watch over women divers" as paternalistic. Anyone who positions himself as someone who "monitors" and "watches over" (not simply "watches" but "watches over" which is very different) the women he encounters while diving, is also, by extension, positioning himself to affect their behavior according to his assessment of what's good (or bad) for them. That's what "monitor" and "watch over" imply.

Certainly not. I 'watch' people walking down the street. Doesn't mean I am accusing them of anything. Should Ron have mentioned some action he would take to prevent a woman from doing something he would let a man do on a dive, that would have been paternalistic. Ron only mentioned the passive activity of watching and for you to add to that is 'assuming facts not in evidence." You can't make assumptions about Ron to make what he said worse in your mind (and ours). Simply not fair.

I find the attempts to backpedal and say that "Always monitor/watch over women divers" means "Let's watch out for one another" intellectually dishonest. There's no reciprocity in Ron's rule; "watch out for" and "watch over" are nowhere near synonymous.

Actually monitor would imply systematic watching. Still passive unless you use your personal bias. Maybe you should ask Ron what he means and not make assumptions.

Perhaps, he made the faux pax of seeming condescending. He doesn't deserve the amount of heat he is getting. Maybe he is just an old guy with a soft spot for women. Don't you all feel nice kicking the old guy?

 

[lsorenson]

Don't you all feel nice kicking the old guy?

:whack:

 

[Quero]

if you are the Aldora boat with Ron as just an ordinary diver: What do you care who he watches?

I wouldn't care at all what he watches. But I wouldn't take kindly to him "monitoring" me.

Maybe you should ask Ron what he means and not make assumptions.

Maybe he should be clearer if he meant something other than what he actually wrote. After all, the onus for comprehensibility of written communication is on the writer, not the reader.

Ron only mentioned the passive activity of watching

Nope. He specifically says, and I quote, "monitor/watch over". This is entirely different from simple watching.

unless you use your personal bias

Nope again. It's not my "bias" at all but rather the actual definition of the terms Ron chose to use:
"monitor": supervise, oversee, regulate--"monitor the implementation of the new policy"; keep track of, watch closely for purposes of control--"monitor your intake of caffeine".
"watch over": guard for safekeeping or protection, be in charge, superintend--"park rangers watch over the forest for signs of fire"

Maybe he is just an old guy with a soft spot for women.

I'm sure he's a perfectly pleasant man. He just needs to get a clue.

Don't you all feel nice kicking the old guy?

If he's so fragile, maybe he's the one who needs monitoring and watching over. :consolation:

 

[Ron Lee]

Most of the posts have been by and large good natured teasing, at least on my part until that last post by Ron Lee which i feel showed he truly thinks women as a generality are inferior divers and he personally will save us from ourselves.

Your analysis is incorrect. You do not know me and you are allowing your jaded perceptions to reach conclusions that some might find offensive. I will not claim to being offended...but will point out that you are incorrect.

---------- Post added January 20th, 2013 at 03:59 PM ----------

I find the attempts to backpedal and say that "Always monitor/watch over women divers" means "Let's watch out for one another" intellectually dishonest. There's no reciprocity in Ron's rule; "watch out for" and "watch over" are nowhere near synonymous.

So my choice of words is determined by YOU to be paternalistic when you do not know what I meant. I did not review Webster's dictionary to verify that overly sensitive people might misconstrue my comments.

Who took it upon themself to change my thread title?

 

[ccannon707]

I declined to post when this comment was recently left by Ron, but it does give a clue to his mindset regarding women. Oink oink Ron. While your "rules" may be taken as caring, your attitude is coming off as patronizing and borderline offensive to us ladies. Get a clue dude. If you want to open a door, pull out a chair, be my dive buddy, fine. Just don't insult me under the guise of having manners.

"The Aldora pier is only LEFT of the ferry pier if you are on land and face the ocean or are female. It is SOUTH of the ferry pier.".....Ron Lee 1/4/13

 

[cvchief]

Nope. He specifically says, and I quote, "monitor/watch over". This is entirely different from simple watching.

I am sorry, while you are correct, watching is different from monitoring, it isn't commonly defined as you choose to define it. You are now redefining 'monitor' make it match an improper, in my opinion, use of 'paternalism.' Monitoring is systematic watching, as I said and you ignored. Is it still passive. Think UN Monitors. Do nothing. You can't in fairness use your definitions to define his meaning. The writer can not be held liable for the reader choosing definitions outside of the dictionary. Choosing more inflammatory meaning for words is quite common today in the attempt to generate outrage, so perhaps you are in the majority on this, but I must still disagree.

And whether the old guy can take it or not, doesn't make it nice or polite. You want to make fun of his socks too? (Ok, maybe I do too, but I DON'T...)

 

[Quero]

So my choice of words is determined by YOU to be paternalistic when you do not know what I meant. I did not review Webster's dictionary to verify that overly sensitive people might misconstrue my comments.

So readers are obliged to read your mind as well as what you write? We are at fault when you fail to know the meanings of the words you use?

---------- Post added January 21st, 2013 at 06:31 AM ----------

I am sorry, while you are correct, watching is different from monitoring, it isn't commonly defined as you choose to define it. You are now redefining 'monitor' make it match an improper, in my opinion, use of 'paternalism.' Monitoring is systematic watching, as I said and you ignored. Is it still passive. Think UN Monitors. Do nothing. You can't in fairness use your definitions to define his meaning. The writer can not be held liable for the reader choosing definitions outside of the dictionary. Choosing more inflammatory meaning for words is quite common today in the attempt to generate outrage, so perhaps you are in the majority on this, but I must still disagree.

And whether the old guy can take it or not, doesn't make it nice or polite. You want to make fun of his socks too? (Ok, maybe I do too, but I DON'T...)

You may feel you need to disagree, but your grasp of language is full of holes. In your example for "monitor" you cite "UN monitor." That's a noun. Ron used it as a verb. Think about what UN monitors do. They observe and supervise compliance to truces and other regulations. This is far from passive. "Monitor" when used as a verb most commonly has exactly the definition I gave. I have not chosen definitions outside the dictionary nor outside of normal interpretation. The fact that so many of us reacted in exactly the same way to this word choice is evidence of that. My definitions are not inflammatory. But what has actually inflamed the whole discussion right from the start is this "rule" of Ron's that women divers always need monitoring and watching over. I find the original gaffe much more rude than calling him out on it is.

 

[Mike]

Who took it upon themself to change my thread title?

:tinkerbell: I'm betting it wasn't a man.

 

[Quero]

:tinkerbell: I'm betting it wasn't a man.

You lose!