Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[CptTightPants21]

I thought the same thing until Paul started talking about nothing happening business wise in HS with the revo for the last year and a half.

Then we get into "define" nothing happening. What is his perception of nothing happening. What is a benchmark for success when any instructor can teach Revo in cave country and have them shipped to N. Florida without going through Jim (see posts mentioned numerous times by several posters, including Jon Bernot, about 3 Revo's sitting in boxes in Cave Country Dive Shop).

I am not saying you are wrong or out of line, but I am just as confused as you are. Point is Paul has done nothing to alleviate that confusion (some could argue he has confirm the initial post).

 

[tomfcrist]

Then we get into "define" nothing happening. What is his perception of nothing happening. What is a benchmark for success when any instructor can teach Revo in cave country and have them shipped to N. Florida without going through Jim (see posts mentioned numerous times by several posters, including Jon Bernot, about 3 Revo's sitting in boxes in Cave Country Dive Shop).

I am not saying you are wrong or out of line, but I am just as confused as you are. Point is Paul has done nothing to alleviate that confusion (some could argue he has confirm the initial post).

Like I said perception is reality. Being the manufacturer, he has the power to call the shots as he sees them. He doesn't owe US anything.

Where I think Paul went wrong, as I stated in the earlier post is that he is trying to dictate "where" a certified revo instructor can teach. I'm pretty sure he can't do that legally.

If Paul perceived that Jim is trying to poach business from Peter, he should just pull jim's dealership and move on. As far as I'm aware, Jim still has his territory in HS. The whole hoopla about other instructors teaching in HS to me is a non issue...if they are Selling out of HS, and Jim still has exclusive rights in that region, Jim needs to request that it be stopped via Paul. If Paul won't stop it, but still won't let Jim sell out of KL, a lawsuit is an easy win for Jim...although he may not go that route.

 

[Wookie]

The tragic part about this, is that is so beyond the scope of my OP. Here's what I thought was happening:

• Three Course Directors are selling their Revo Rebreathers.
• They believe they aren't allowed to teach Revo Rebreathers in the Keys.
• I see no clear path for me to become a Revo Rebreather instructor.

I've been accused of being someone's sock puppet.
I've been accused of conspiring to ruin people's reputation.
I've been accused of being unfair.
I've been accused of being a FUDDD.
I've been accused of being a yellow journalist.

Are any of the three main premises of my OP inaccurate, fabricated or malicious in nature? Not even close. So, all these accusations are levelled at me because I dared to speak my mind? You can believe all you want. The distortions about what I posted. The lies about what my intentions are. What one of those "gentlemen" says behind my back, about what my end game must be. You want accuse me of spreading FUDDD? To be frank... I want my thread back. No one has answered my concerns. They just want to bash me for having them.

The people that can answer your questions are Paul Ray Maekers (May I be a rEvo instructor?), Peter Sotis (May I teach in your territory without being a dealer), and Tom Mount or Brian Carney (May I be a Mod 1 rebreather instructor). Asking in such a way as to get the public riled up on an open forum and bringing politics into it is not a way of getting yes answers. Getting yes answers involves being quiet and asking privately, by e-mail or formal letter. But I suspect you knew this.

 

[The Chairman]

So, the public has no right to know in your eyes. We disagree. I believe that open discussions, even those you don't like, are good for the community.

 

[sbijou]

So, the public has no right to know in your eyes. We disagree. I believe that open discussions, even those you don't like, are good for the community.

"I" am not part of "We". This shouldn't be a public discussion. It's a private business transaction and what obligates the parties involved to sharing confidential information? Because, "The public has a right to know?" That's nonsence.

 

[The Chairman]

"I" am not part of "We". This shouldn't be a public discussion. It's a private business transaction and what obligates the parties involved to sharing confidential information? Because, "The public has a right to know?" That's nonsence.

What are you talking about? That's got nothing to do with my OP. Paul has hijacked my thread to be about that. That's his fault, not mine.

 

[Wookie]

What are you talking about? That's got nothing to do with my OP. Paul has hijacked my thread to be about that. That's his fault, not mine.

One shop. Wow. When have we ever thought that training could or should be exclusive to only one shop?

How could that be good for Revo? For the industry? I live in a place that has more dive shops than gas stations and apparently, none of them are being allowed to sell or train students on the Revo. Can that even be legal? It boggles the mind.

Only, that doesn't seem to be possible with the Revo in South Florida right now. Until I have some good answers, I don't think a Revo is in my future at this point.

So what are your thoughts and observations? Do you like this kind of monopoly? Do you have anything to add about what's happening with Revos here in South Florida? I would love to get more than cryptic statements and allow this cat fully out of it's bag.

Rly? Paul hijacked your thread? You didn't bait him just a little?

 

[Rred]

"Can that even be legal?"
Doc, you can negotiate almost anything into a commercial contract, especially one that may give exclusive geographic rights, or distributions rights, and that includes non-compete clauses. Since refrigerators were invented, dairy companies, and later Coke and Pepsi, commonly GAVE new restaurants and diners the big glass refrigerator cases. Free. On condition that the business either never carried products from the competition, or never stocked them in that case. Void the agreement, and the case went bye-bye.
So in the SCUBA business? Where there are never enough customers to go around (unless you're in a hot resort area) and outright FUD and lies are common business tools...You'd probably have to sign an NDA and then read the contract terms, and then thanks to the NDA never be ever able to discuss the truth behind any business agreement.

Even something as simple as a "J" valve. Although XS Scuba now sells one to anyone who wants to ante up some $350 (?!) I've found many shops refuse to fill or service them. The old makers won't sell them, and the one who still will, will ONLY sell the valves, or the repair parts to rebuild older valves, through their "military" dealers. Won't sell them to your civilian dive shops at all.

Now, most of the dive shops say "We can't touch a J-valve, they're dangerous, they can kill you!" while OHSA, the DoD, and NOAA all say "You ain't going diving without one, period." (Or more complex redundant systems.) So, is the dive industry really more knowledgeable about safety than three major government organizations?

The same dive industry that said "Use the Navy Tables" in the 1980s, ignoring the fact that those were the warm water tables and every USN Diving Medical Officer could tell you that if you used a wet suit--those were the wrong, dangerously wrong, tables to use?

Or the same dive industry that tells you that you can't get a tank "plus" hydro'd after the purchase, when the DOT says "Ah, yea, you can get is plus hydro'd forever if you read the rule book and follow the rules." Which aren't difficult to follow.

Or the same dive industry that insists on selling you a VIP after a hydro, ignoring the fact that the DOT requires every hydro begins with a VIP by a DOT trained and qualified tech, the same tech that you are trusting to do the hydro. Hmmmm....

Then folks in the dive industry wonder why divers think that most (not all, just most) shops are full of FUD. Well...the industry really needs to rethink the questions of HONESTY and FAIR PLAY and yes, that means no secrets in contracts either. Otherwise, they'll just continue to kill business. And divers.

 

[The Chairman]

I had no idea Paul would participate, much less hijack the thread. But then, I didn't think you would help him, either. Why not take my OP at face value, rather than try to put words in my mouth? I'm certainly not trying to put any in yours or Paul's. Rather ungentlemanly of me I guess.

Rly? Paul hijacked your thread? You didn't bait him just a little?

 

[pkacp]

Hi all,

I've decide to add my two cents to the discussion. To be clear, I'm rEvo instructor and, using this thread terminology, my "territory" is Poland, Europe.

In my opinion, a lot of threats here are verbal distortions, twisted sentences in order to achieve some goal. As I fully know and understand rEvo policy I think this need to be said, for subject claryfication.

First of all, the main question was: can I chose whatever rEvo instructor I want and ask him for whatever location in the planet I want to do the course, as long as I'm fine covering all travel costs. The answer is YES, you can. rEvo was never blocking any of these actions.

There is BUT, however.

Second clarification, should be done is separate two concerns: teaching in a region and active working in a region. rEvo has, let't call this "territorial policy" regarding the instructors. I think Paul has explain it quite clear: the only goal for this policy is that when one dealer/instructor is responsible for one territory, he can do his job better: spend money on commercial, doing try divers, rebreather events or whatever coms into his mind to promote rEvo. Here in Poland I often do rEvo presentations in other Diving Centers, Try Dives for other Diving Facilities and it works well, because at the end of the day, other Diving Center (I also run one) is not my competition, because their customers if wants to be trained on rEvo, will come to me. It's my deal to make an agreement with other Diving Center, find some cooperation conditions and/or commission them on this. If there was more then one rEvo instructor in my area, I wouldn't spend time and money to do all this, because my effort could make benefits for other instructors. All rEvo instructor knows that, and I think it;s great policy, because it allow us fully sacrifice to that businness.

Now, in this particular situation [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Jim Wyatt describes the problem not in full range. He claims that "other instructors can work on his territory and he cannot do this in other territory". That is not true. Correct description is "The others instructors are allow to come with their own students to his territory and do the training there, but they are not allow to advertise, make events and other marketing stuff on Jim's territory. I get emails sometimes even from US with question about rEvo training and I'm fully allowed to offer this training for US divers if they contact me. I'm not allowed to advertise and do any marketing stuff in US, as this is not my territory.
[/FONT]
Jim's problem is that he abandoned his territory (as I can presume, because he didn't success there) and moved into another one, that was already occupied by another dealer. This dealer was there for several years, and probably did a lot of work and spend a lot of money in promoting rEvo in this area. Jim moved there and immiedently assigned himself with other Diving Center/Diving Facility and planned to develop rEvo with them. It's obvious that one of their actions (Jim's and his new Diving Center) will be promoting them as rEvo facility to get the customers there. And this is not fair and against rEVo rulez. AdHelium was there for several years, builded rEvo position and streinght and now Jim's wants to benefit from this. This is breaking rEvo rules and this is the problem. I'm sure if Jim was not assigned to Diving Center and did not any rEvo advertise and marketing in not his territory, just live there and use only his name and position to sell courses, travel all the world to do courses etc. Paul wouldn't mind that. But that wasn't the case. As I understood, Jim just moved into this territory and started promoting, advertising and marketing him and his new Dive Center as rEvo facility.

So, once again - please don't mixup teaching rEvo in whatever territory with operating as Diving Center/Diving Facility on someone's territory, because it's a big difference.

If anyone wants to do rEvo course in cold and dark Baltic Sea, full of beautiful wrecks - come to Poland for the course. I'm sure rEvo wouldn't mind

Cheers,

Przemyslaw Kacprzak