Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[CptTightPants21]

Nothing. I had this conversation with a training person at a training agency yesterday. If a rebreather manufacturer (hypothetically) had a concern with one of their instructors, they could call for a QA review of an instructor, just as you or I could. The results of that review would be confidential, unless there was sufficient evidence to expel the instructor. But your basic question is can a manufacturer get teaching status on a particular unit revoked, and the answer is no, unless there is something found in the investigation to expel the instructor.

However, the manufacturer has a lot of say in who becomes an instructor. As Pete said a while back, the RESA agreements allow a manufacturer to not let a person become an instructor in the first place.

Once they do become an instructor, does manufacturer have any say over what courses they can teach---Paul rejecting Jim from teaching Trimix on the Revo even though he is qualified on other units and by several agencies?

I believe the answer is no, but want to confirm.

 

[Nuribromanski]

But your basic question is can a manufacturer get teaching status on a particular unit revoked, and the answer is no, unless there is something found in the investigation to expel the instructor.

Sorry, no. my question just why agency gave ccr maker a say in who becomes instructor or what training is, 2 begin with. from ur answer some agency have agreements with ccr makers about this...just because seemed good at 1 time. now maybe they rethink those agreements with revo/ccr maker's role in training in future.

 

[Wookie]

Once they do become an instructor, does manufacturer have any say over what courses they can teach---Paul rejecting Jim from teaching Trimix on the Revo even though he is qualified on other units and by several agencies?

I believe the answer is no, but want to confirm.

I cannot speak to that, I did not ask that particular question. I was not asking about Paul or Jim, nor is that what this thread is about, really.

To answer your direct question as best I can, as far as I can see reading standards, if an agency that teaches rebreathers (PADI, TDI, IANTD and others, I have a very good friend in PADI training) being a rebreather instructor is not unit specific. That is, if you are a qualified mod 1 instructor on a evolution/inspiration, and you buy a Meg, and you become proficient on the Meg, and you get Leon's approval, (which in that case, you team teach a class with Leon), you don't get an extra card, you just get Leon's approval to teach on a Meg, and the training agency allows you to issue Meg Mod 1 cert cards. You don't have to go back through an IDC or IE to become a PADI Mod 1 Meg instructor. If you go out and make Leon mad, what I'd guess you'd find is that you won't get your rebreather upgraded, you won't get parts, and he won't ship student units to your address, so your certification card won't matter much.

---------- Post added December 1st, 2015 at 05:03 PM ----------

Sorry, no. my question just why agency gave ccr maker a say in who becomes instructor or what training is, 2 begin with. from ur answer some agency have agreements with ccr makers about this...just because seemed good at 1 time. now maybe they rethink those agreements with revo/ccr maker's role in training in future.

RESA (the Rebreather Education and Safety Association) was formed partly to raise the standards of rebreather instruction. I think all of the training agencies, most of the manufacturers, periphery companies like Shearwater Research (who aren't really ancillary, considering they make the majority of setpoint controllers and handsets in use today). From their website:

RESA was developed in order to aid in improving the safety and education in the rebreather industry. And to ensure that the appropriate framework is in place that suits our growing industry. Our operating objectives are:

1. Promote standards based development and manufacture of rebreather equipment, the quality of which is measured by third party audited Quality Management Systems.
2. Promote a high level of safety awareness and training.

We have all worked hard to form this corporation, taking over a year for incorporation to be complete and are very excited to be working together for the first time, to promote the education and safety of rebreather divers.

That's why the training agencies go along with the manufacturers, is because they all promote excellent safety and instruction through RESA.
Does that answer your question?

 

[The Chairman]

You have turned the "average" prospective rebreather diver away from a perfectly good unit because of something you thought was happening, .

The tragic part about this, is that is so beyond the scope of my OP. Here's what I thought was happening:

• Three Course Directors are selling their Revo Rebreathers.
• They believe they aren't allowed to teach Revo Rebreathers in the Keys.
• I see no clear path for me to become a Revo Rebreather instructor.

I've been accused of being someone's sock puppet.
I've been accused of conspiring to ruin people's reputation.
I've been accused of being unfair.
I've been accused of being a FUDDD.
I've been accused of being a yellow journalist.

Are any of the three main premises of my OP inaccurate, fabricated or malicious in nature? Not even close. So, all these accusations are levelled at me because I dared to speak my mind? You can believe all you want. The distortions about what I posted. The lies about what my intentions are. What one of those "gentlemen" says behind my back, about what my end game must be. You want accuse me of spreading FUDDD? To be frank... I want my thread back. No one has answered my concerns. They just want to bash me for having them.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am still trying to understand this, and I am absolutely one of the people in the dark. As I understand it, Jim has the exclusive rights to sell Revo in High Springs (population of the surrounding counties = about 350,000 people), and Pete has the exclusive right to sell Revo in South Florida (population about 6,000,000 people). If someone has the exclusive rights to sell in one area, they could still enter another area to do the training, as long as he or she does not own property in that area. (The fact that Jim owns property in Key Largo as well as High Springs is the reason he can't train divers in Key Largo.) I hope that understanding is correct.

The following questions are absolutely legitimate. As I said earlier, I am thinking of becoming a rebreather instructor to add to my technical instructor offerings, and the answers will shape my thinking.

1. Let's say I become a Revo instructor and have exclusive rights to an area in Colorado. I go to Florida every winter and spend several months in a rented condominium. Would I be allowed to train my students in Florida, or would the fact that I rent a condominium while I am there make me ineligible? If it would make me ineligible, what kind of living arrangements would be acceptable?

2. I am thinking that it might be smarter to purchase a condominium and rent it out for the part of the year I am not there. If I would be allowed to train students while staying in a rented condominium, would I lose that right if I were to purchase it?

 

[tomfcrist]

After reading through this whole thread, i see the gripes both sides have.

Jim would be allowed to teach in KL if he was still running his north Florida territory. If he was selling units and training them out of cave country, but wanted to drive down with a student to dive KL...no problem.
The problem comes with the perception that Jim is working and living full time(or even the majority of the time) in KL and nothing is getting done in relation to the revo in cave country. If that is the perception and Peter S has dealer rights in south FL, it would be completely understandable that revo and AH take exception to Jim selling and teaching revo in KL. Saying that he sold the unit out of high springs when he is physically in KL is BS.

Now I still have issues with the way Paul is handling it. Honestly, if Jim wasn't fulfilling his contract or expectations in HS, Paul should flat out pull his dealership....that's what makes sense...give the dealer territory to someone who will do something with it. Problem solved.

Now Jim would still be an instructor in the unit, but would be unable to sell a unit(new) in ANY territory, but would still be able to teach ANYWHERE.

The issue at hand has little to do with people teaching, but with the manufacturer trying to give its dealers exclusive rights to sell in particular regions...which is IMO a solid practice. Every smart manufacturer does it. One can debate though the merits of giving one dealer the rights to thousands of square miles, but ultimately that is up to the manufacturer.

Jim, Paul perceives that you abandoned your post in HS and tried to sell and teach revo in another territory. As you know , perception is reality. That is the root of the problem.

 

[chillyinCanada]

What is FUDDD?

 

[boulderjohn]

What is FUDDD?

My guess it is like the definition of FUDD: Fear Uncertainty Doubt and Disinformation

---------- Post added December 1st, 2015 at 03:56 PM ----------

Jim would be allowed to teach in KL if he was still running his north Florida territory. If he was selling units and training them out of cave country, but wanted to drive down with a student to dive KL...no problem.
The problem comes with the perception that Jim is working and living full time(or even the majority of the time) in KL and nothing is getting done in relation to the revo in cave country. ...

Jim, Paul perceives that you abandoned your post in HS and tried to sell and teach revo in another territory. As you know , perception is reality. That is the root of the problem.

I think the fact that two reasonably intelligent people can read this thread and come to two opposite conclusions about what should be a simple fact is telling.

I thought the problem was not that Jim was abandoning his High Springs area but rather that he was also doing training in Key Largo while he was there. The fact that he had a home in Key Largo supposedly meant that he was establishing two territories.

 

[The Chairman]

@

What is FUDDD?

Fear, uncertainty, doubt, distortion and deception. It's mostly a political tactic such as swiftboating.

 

[tomfcrist]

I think the faft that two reasonably intelligent people can read this thread and come to two opposite conclusions about what should be a simple fact is telling.

I thought the problem was not that Jim was abandoning his High Springs area but rather that he was also doing training in Key Largo while he was there. The fact that he had a home in Key Largo supposedly meant that he was establishing two territories.

I thought the same thing until Paul started talking about nothing happening business wise in HS with the revo for the last year and a half.