Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[tomfcrist]

. Correct description is "The others instructors are allow to come with their own students to his territory and do the training there, but they are not allow to advertise, make events and other marketing stuff on Jim's territory. I get emails sometimes even from US with question about rEvo training and I'm fully allowed to offer this training for US divers if they contact me. I'm not allowed to advertise and do any marketing stuff in US, as this is not my territory.

SO where does the line get drawn when it applies to advertising in other peoples territories. Add Helium pops up on my facebook feed after I do rebreather research online. It advertises Revos and other gear..new and used....in Virginia. Whos territory is Peter advertising in? Everybodys.

 

[CptTightPants21]

SO where does the line get drawn when it applies to advertising in other peoples territories. Add Helium pops up on my facebook feed after I do rebreather research online. It advertises Revos and other gear..new and used....in Virginia. Whos territory is Peter advertising in? Everybodys.

Also, Jim is an instructor for a lot of different agencies and courses besides Revo. Is he allowed to advertise that he is a tech instructor that does training in Key Largo and High Springs? You don't need to be so direct as say, come on and do a try dive with Revo in Key Largo (Is there any evidence that Jim did this anyway?). Simply saying that he does training in Key Largo on one page, and the fact that he is a Revo instructor (found on Revo's on website or several other sources) would imply that he can teach Revo in Key Largo. I could be mistaken, but it was my impression that Paul had a problem with Jim's personal website.

And the internet mention with regards to AddHelium is excellent. They advertise all over the internet for all sorts of rebreathers...why aren't they "invading" people's territory?

 

[Doby45]

I am a total newb here too but if what Paul says is correct, I see his point.

Jim has business in HS and sells Revos there to people in that area, say someone from Jacksonville. He could most certainly take that student to KL, KW or any other location in south Florida to train him/her.

Jim is living at his KL location for a short time and sells a Revo to someone that lives in Kendall, FL - That would be a no no. Or you are living at your abode in KL and working as a Revo trainer for a company that competes with the local Revo shop - That would be a no no.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me and I have no dog in the hunt what so ever..

It would be no different than if the guy in south Florida sold Revos to someone in Tampa and then wanted to train them at Cave Country - that would be a no no. But if the guy in south Florida sold 3 Revos to a group of firemen in Boca he most definitely could take them to Cave Country to train them.

 

[The Chairman]

Except, Jim's not trying to sell Revos as much as his services as a trainer.

 

[Doby45]

Well to a degree I can see that too. I am not sure what commission is made off of the sale of a Revo so I could TOTALLY be talking out of my butt. But, the money made off training is probably more than the commission off of the sale, so if the area is already being serviced by a Revo distributor you are in fact poaching the more lucrative part of the business by going into another distributors area and training customers that are not yours. It would be no different than if the south Florida guy came up to Cave Country and setup a little tent and offered training to the people of that area. Now if the person from south Florida sold Revos to south Florida clients and then decided to train them up in CC there is no issue with that. Am I totally off base and missing something?

 

[The Chairman]

. Am I totally off base and missing something?

It's far, far grayer than that. Very, very few of these are being sold by people walking into any shop and saying "I want to buy Revo!" It's mostly done on the interwebs and by word of mouth. Case in point, I want to learn the SF2. I live in the Keys and spend lots of time in Cave Country. Tom McCarthy is going to be my instructor, wherever we decide to do it. I met Tom diving his SF2 side mount in Ginnie Springs... literally inside the cave. Was Tom marketing to me by diving in Ginnie Springs? He lives up in New York.

Jim has worked his entire life building up a number of people who love learning from him. He's adopted Social Media as well, which most shops and manufacturers have no clue how to use. He still lives up in Cave Country, but he has a house down here in Key Largo as well. Apparently, simply by owning a house here, he is being disqualified from teaching the Revo here. The people who come in to where he works in Key Largo will probably only be introduced to the units they can train on. That will now never include a Revo Rebreather. It's not like they are competing with anyone in South Florida, as the people going there are coming from all over the world with few coming from South Florida. Key Largo is a world destination and more so than Cave Country. They are not the only shop being affected by this and as I said, others are selling their Revos because of this policy.

I believe Revo Rebreathers is the only manufacturer to have this kind of restriction of where an instructor can train or not train. Some people think I'm horrible for bringing this up. What are they trying to hide? In the information age, we want information. That's what these forums are all about. All these aspersions about Jim and me are nothing but red herrings to distract you from the intent of the OP. Although they would like you to think it's all about some turf tiff between only one instructor, it's not. What has happened to him has happened to others and I don't like it. Since I don't like the policy, I won't buy the product.

 

[boulderjohn]

Apparently, simply by owning a house here, he is being disqualified from teaching the Revo here.

That is the question I have asked several times now, and no one can give me an answer. I will try it again.

I am a technical diving instructor considering adding rebreather instruction to my portfolio. I live in Colorado most of the year, but I spend the winter in South Florida (Pompano Beach) in a rented condo. This coming year, two of my trimix students will come to South Florida to do training dives with me there.

Here are the questions I have about becoming a rEvo instructor:

1. If I live in a rented condominium while staying in South Florida, would that mean that I will not be allowed to do training dives there with my students from Colorado, the way I will be doing it with trimix students?

2. If I am allowed to train my students while living in a rented condominium, would I still be allowed to do it if I decided to purchase a condo instead?

 

[Doby45]

I gotcha, that does make a bit more sense. So what you are saying is Jim could be working at shop X and someone comes in from Ireland (on vacation and knows Jim from the interwebz) and talks to Jim for a bit and then says "Man, I would love to try CCR diving, can you give me a test dive" or what ever. He is not local to the area and really could have walked into any shop in America. The reality is Jim could actually talk the guy into a Revo and without his interaction with Jim the potential buyer would have never even approached the topic, much less gone to the one place in south Florida that sales Revos.

 

[The Chairman]

I gotcha, that does make a bit more sense. So what you are saying is Jim could be working at shop X and someone comes in from Ireland (on vacation and knows Jim from the interwebz) and talks to Jim for a bit and then says "Man, I would love to try CCR diving, can you give me a test dive" or what ever. He is not local to the area and really could have walked into any shop in America. The reality is Jim could actually talk the guy into a Revo and without his interaction with Jim the potential buyer would have never even approached the topic, much less gone to the one place in south Florida that sales Revos.

Now you get where I'm coming from.

When instructors start to bail on certain gear, and here we have three Course Directors, it's worth a look to see why. Revo Rebreathers are solid units with a great track record of safety. Hell, I enjoyed diving one. I was hoping for more real input rather than the finger pointing that derailed it all. I'm hoping we can still get back to that.

That is the question I have asked several times now, and no one can give me an answer. I will try it again.

First rule of Scuba applies here, John: Don't hold your breath waiting for that answer.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There are some interesting things to consider here.

First the Cave Country Dive shop web page announced 16 June 2014 that the Bernot's had replaced Jim's ownership and participation in the shop, but that's not really the issue as Jim is the rEvo dealer, not cave. Cave Country Dive shop. Even when Jim was part owner and associated with Cave Country his instruction business was both separate and his own.

Second, Jim still owns and operates that business, Cave Dive Florida, located in High Springs with a High Springs address and a Gainsville area code phone number. The fact that he may also choose to work with another shop or business in south Florida, or even own or part own another business in south Florida doesn't have any meaningful impact on the fact that the business in question - rEvo dealership - is still located in High Springs.

Third, the only link on Cave Dive Florida's website that mentions the keys specifically is a link indicating that if you want to dive the keys technical or rec style click here - taking you to the Florida Keys Technical Diving website, where you'll find a list of courses, including CCR Cave training, but nothing specific to the rEvo. And last I knew, you can't do CCR Cave training in the keys.

Fourth, I don't get the impression anyone is lining up to be a rEvo dealer in High Springs itself. EE probably isn't going to be interested in marketing a non Halcyon rebreather and Jon Bernot has stated in this thread he's not real interested in the rEvo so I don't see Cave Country Dive Shop chomping at that bit either.

I've never seen either of the shops in Luraville eager to start stocking and selling rebreathers.

Wayne at Amigos in Ft. Whiite might be interested, and that's probably the least remote possibility given that there is at least one rEvo instructor associated with the shop, advertised on the website as a CCR instructor.

Finally, the irony is that the rEvo instructor I know on the list at Amigos, doesn't live in FL at all, let alone N FL, so it's a case of a rEvo approved instructor from across the country being advertised by a non rEvo shop in cave country as providing CCR instruction through the shop, when that shop appears not to have a rEvo dealership, let alone one in that territory. rEvo isn't mentioned specifically, but then it isn't mentioned specifically either on the Cave Dive Florida site.

Isn't that exactly the same situation and the same offense for which Jim stands accused?

Apparently it's a common practice, so why is it wrong when Jim does it?

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So...after looking at all that, while I see that while Paul might be put off that Jim isn't selling a lot of rEvos, or as Paul put it, not "developing the territory", it begs the question of what Paul should do about it.

I think, based on what's been said here, that most of the potential customers seem to agree that restricting Jim from training rEvo students where ever they want to train, while not placing the same restriction on AdHelium comes off as being fundamentally unfair.

An understandable and even logical conclusion is that Paul seems to be willing to accommodate AdHelium's wish to monopolize training in S FL, not just sales, given that they sell more rEvos that Jim. That's strikes me as going after the money rather than treating all parties fairly. That loses rEvo big points in my book.