"Riding your Computer Up" vs. "Lite Deco"

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OK, this post is going to start with a far-flung analogy, but please stick with it.

I recently worked with some AOW students who had been taught by others in our shop, and I was asked to have a DMC join us so he could do some of his DM skills as well. He led the dive, starting with the 5 point descent. Under his direction and as the students had been taught in class, as one of the parts of the descent process, they all pointed to their wrists. When I debriefed him, I asked why. It's one of the 5 points he said --you are noting the time. I pointed out that since none of them were wearing watches, none of them were noting the time. I asked the purpose of noting the time. He had to think for a minute, and he realized it was so you could time the dive when using tables. I pointed out that they weren't using tables; they were using computers. He was baffled--he had no idea what to do in that situation.They were thus using incompatible processes--a descent procedure designed for watches and tables while instead using computers.

I think we are dealing with something analogous here--an uncomfortable blend of old procedures and new technology.

When recreational diving first came into existence, almost everyone used the US Navy air tables. They included deco stops for those who went deep enough and long enough to require them. Those tables were not very good for recreational divers, though, because the surface intervals were based on the 120 minute compartment, which led to very, very long surface intervals that made two tank diving a challenge. It didn't matter to the Navy, because their divers usually only did one dive a day, but it was a problem for divers like you and me. Because of that, PADI did extensive research on the kind of diving being done by typical recreational divers so that they could create a system that would enable recreational divers to enjoy multiple dive days. The result was the PADI Recreational Dive Planner, which shortened the first dive NDLs, used the 60 minute compartment for surface intervals, and made more pressure groups to decrease rounding. This new process completely changed the way recreational diving was done, and even if you did not use the PADI tables, you were doing something very similar. That became the norm upon which probably 90% of the today's divers were trained.

In order to make that work, though, they had to take decompression out of the tables. Most modern dive tables do not have any information for decompression stops in them, and the assumption is that you simply won't go into deco. If you do go into deco while using most dive tables, you have literally gone "off the charts," and the table does not know how to deal with your situation. The consequences for going off the charts are draconian. If you exceed the NDL by one minute while using the PADI tables, you must do an 8 minute stop and stay out of the water for 6 hours. Exceed it by 6 minutes and you must do a 15 minute stop and stay out of the water for 24 hours. This leads to the strong warning that you MUST NOT exceed your NDL! It leads to the situation where I once had a dive buddy suddenly bolt to the surface in absolute terror because his computer indicated he was getting close to his NDL. He was sure he was having a near death experience.

This is another case of people using table procedures for computer dives. If you exceed your NDL by one minute with any modern recreational dive computer, it will clear deco during a standard safety stop, and you will be back in the water after a normal surface interval. If you exceed the NDL by one minute with a tech computer like a Shearwater, it will require a one minute stop only. If you are taking the computer version of the PADI OW course, you are taught that if you exceed the NDL with your computer, you should follow the computer's directions for appropriate decompression. That sounds a lot like what people are advocating here. Eventually something like that will become the norm and we will not be having threads like this one.
 
...//... What's pathetic is the over-complication of such a ridiculously simple protocol, just to satisfy some inane addiction to seeing numerals on a screen.
Totally agree.

Maybe most of the agencies should stop teaching us to fear deco so much, that is where the reliance stems from. I took OW from both NAUI and PADI, definitely different flavors of the same thing. But deco was treated the same in both.

Now for deco: "Don't do that s**t."
 
Maybe most of the agencies should stop teaching us to fear deco so much, that is where the reliance stems from.
It's entirely possible that I've been fooled by the eeevul Scuba industry, but I've made a conscious choice to stay away from an overhead, be it hard or virtual. A deco obligation is a virtual overhead. Yes, I know it's a sharp, black line drawn through a fuzzy gray area, but since I'm not a deco scientist I have to trust those - hopefully reasonably competent - guys and gals who wrote my computer's algorithm. And by choosing a DC I've made a choice about where my personal sharp black line is drawn, and if I deviate from that choice I'm probably normalizing deviance.
 
So why are people talking about hacking the computers? Why do they need to be hacked?

I will be doing some fairly serious decompression diving with students over the next few days, with most dives close to 300 feet. We will plan each dive carefully before we get in the water using desktop software. We will write a primary plan in our notes based on what we expect to do, and we will write down two contingency plans in case we depart from that to some degree. We will have computers with the same settings as the desktop software. We don't need desktop software, though--we could do the planning right on the computers we will wear. Once in the water, we will have a choice. We can follow the preplanned profiles with the computers as backups, or we can follow the computers and have the preplanned notes as backups. In practice, we pretty much always follow the computers and use the notes for backup.My students will have the same computer I use, and they will have other instruments for depth and time as backups.

I will carry two computers so if one goes bad, I will have the other. I will also have the notes to guide me.

That is for a technical dive, where the decompression procedure is critical to keeping me alive.

So what do I do on recreational dives? Well, it is pretty much the same thing. I have done enough dives to have a pretty good idea what the profile will be, but I can go to the computer's planning mode, enter the depth, and get the information ahead of time. I can follow that square profile plan if I wish, or I can follow the computer. In practice, I follow the computer. If it works on a technical dive, why would it not work on a recreational dive?
 
. . .
It is my suspicion that most of this consternation is caused by divers with poor skills and high SAC rates having to end the dive before the rest of the group. It appears to me that a common kneejerk reaction to that humiliation is to find a more aggressive computer. . . .

Or just plain greed. Two more minutes. Just two more minutes. As I see it, I can always do another dive later. Or, if it REALLY isn't long enough, I can do a much longer dive with all the gear and deco stop procedures that go along with "real deco" diving.
 
Most modern dive tables do not have any information for decompression stops in them, and the assumption is that you simply won't go into deco.
NAUI tables do. My air table includes 18 minutes of deco for one profile, and my ean36 table shows a dive requiring a 39 minute deco stop.
 
Yes... it's a safety stop. So just make it up. It's a simple over-stay in the shallows to permit additional gas diffusion.

Why would you need to 'hack' your dive computer... in the process losing your real-time awareness... to do an extended safety stop?

Diver A does a dive on air. He goes to 120'. His very aggressive recreational computer gives him 15 minutes of NDL (matching the NOAA table for Air). He stays until the computer NDL counts down to 0 then does a normal ascent and stops at 15'. He decides to be extra conservative and stops for 5 minutes and gets out.

Diver B does a dive on air. He goes to 120'. He has the same computer as Diver A. He also stays for 15 minutes, whereupon he adjusts his computer and sets it for a higher level of conservatism. He does a normal ascent and his computer tells him to stop for 4:00 at 40', 2:00 at 30', and 9:00 at 20', which he does - knowing all the while that if he has to, he CAN go directly to the surface.

That's the difference between using GF100/100, having no mandatory deco, and "making it up" versus using GF30/70 and letting the computer figure it out for you.

And you are advocating that Recreational divers should operate like Diver A.

I often feel like I'm just showing my inexperience, and I've said this many times before, but my personal feeling is that I would always rather have a computer calculate my ascent for me than to "make it up" in my head. In this example - which, by the way, is an example of EXACTLY what this thread is about - it seems to me that Diver B is diving more safely than Diver A.

ps. I would say I AM Diver B on recreational dives. I don't adjust my computer during the dive. I use an aggressive Rec computer to tell me my NDL and a second computer - a tech computer, with GF set to something more conservative - to tell me my ascent. In practice, the tech computer usually clears any deco before I get to my safety stop. At worst, the mandatory deco (according to my tech computer) is no more than the safety stop I would do anyway. But, I would rather have the computer tell me that than take the risk of "making it up" when my chosen GF would have actually dictated more deco. In the specific example, I would much rather do the 40 and 30' stops than skip them because I "made it up" and didn't realize my chosen GF would call for those stops.
 
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Online forums? :rofl3: Books, most of which include specific disclaimers in the front cover that say this is no substitute for training?

Mayby, if MOST books that you read are instructional material published by a scuba training agency. I don't think I have ever seen such a statement in any other technical documentation.

BTW, I do have an AOW card but never took the course. But I did read the book, although that was not required.
 
...I suppose that makes me the new VooDooGasMan. Whatever happened to him? I miss him. He would have added value to this thread. :wink:...

Dick Rutkowski is alive and well. He had to move Hyperbarics International when Ocean Divers changed hands, Hyperbaric Medical Training Programs in Key Largo | Home

I took the hyperbaric course with him in 2005, learned a tremendous amount and got to dive a Navy Mark V in the Key Largo canal to boot.

See the recent posts from Elena Hyperbarics Intl Forum for Instructors Dec 15, 2016 Key Largo and Dick Rutkowski's 86th birthday celebration In Key Largo Nov 11, 2016
 
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It is my suspicion that most of this consternation is caused by divers with poor skills and high SAC rates having to end the dive before the rest of the group. It appears to me that a common kneejerk reaction to that humiliation is to find a more aggressive computer.

Huh? Those divers are ending dives because they're low on air, not because they're running out of NDL. They are not the ones pushing for more aggressive computers, I don't think.
 
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