Required night dive certification

[NAM001]

So - my knee jerk reaction was this is so wrong...

But I will yeild to the - "if an OW diver believes they need instruction on night dives" - I think that is perfectly fine and makes. If an OW diver can not find a buddy to show them the ropes - by all means get instruction so you are comfortable in the water. This is what diving should be all about - being comfortable in the water.
If you are comfortable with an instructor or equally with a buddy / mentor - have at it as well... Not everyone is comfortable in the water at the same level coming out of OW classes. Find someone to help or get some training... But I dont believe a card carrying Night Dive Certification should be required for someone to night dive.

I see night diving like cave diving. Im not saying that you have to have a card ,,, however the card is the only thing that is positive proof to an operator. From an operators aspect yes to the card. NIght diving has to many aspects that can be deadly. if you are diving in a local lake you have dove hundreds of times thats 30ft deep then I agree with you ,, You should not have to have a night dive/resuced visiblity card. But leaving your comfy home spots for the open ocean to 100 ft on a night dive is another thing all together. My first non lake night dive was at the flower gardens. I had a leak in the light and blew both filiments and the small cheap pocket light went dead. That is no time for a newby to to have to deal with a blind dive with no more than a few logged dives. I learned the hard way to have REAL DIVING LIGHTS and not some 30$ special. I never took a night course till after that happened. I did not learn a lot per se' as theory goes but my equipment and planning for problems sure did because the reality of things going wrong was real to me. If there is going to be a one rule fits all, and the scuba industry likes to do that, then you have to error to the side of no training ,,,, no dive. People have no clue that they maintain deoth based on their vision of their surroundings.

 

[TrimixToo]

I see night diving like cave diving. Im not saying that you have to have a card ,,, however the card is the only thing that is positive proof to an operator. From an operators aspect yes to the card. NIght diving has to many aspects that can be deadly. if you are diving in a local lake you have dove hundreds of times thats 30ft deep then I agree with you ,, You should not have to have a night dive/resuced visiblity card. But leaving your comfy home spots for the open ocean to 100 ft on a night dive is another thing all together. My first non lake night dive was at the flower gardens. I had a leak in the light and blew both filiments and the small cheap pocket light went dead. That is no time for a newby to to have to deal with a blind dive with no more than a few logged dives. I learned the hard way to have REAL DIVING LIGHTS and not some 30$ special. I never took a night course till after that happened. I did not learn a lot per se' as theory goes but my equipment and planning for problems sure did because the reality of things going wrong was real to me. If there is going to be a one rule fits all, and the scuba industry likes to do that, then you have to error to the side of no training ,,,, no dive. People have no clue that they maintain deoth based on their vision of their surroundings.

I agree with most of this, but I would not equate cave and night diving. The stakes are a lot different, for starters, and the skill sets differ markedly.

That said, I find your last point especially interesting. It is hard to maintain depth with no visual reference, and this difficulty is exacerbated with digital depth gauges. It is really difficult not to "chase" the gauge. If you have an analog gauge, it's surprisingly easier to maintain depth without much visual reference in my opinion because you can see the rate of swing in the needle without the sampling delay that digital gauges usually have.

 

[bamafan]

Years ago I use to spearfish with an active duty Seal. He got in during the early 80's and used to tell about their insertions into the Russian harbors . He had just returned from Kuwait where they had seized the offshore oli rigs from the Iraqi's and took his girlfriend on a vacation. He only had a PADI ow card from high school but his girlfriend had an aow card. They wouldn't let him do a night dive but they would her. Some things don't make any sense but it's their boat so it's their rules. I would go elsewhere if possible.

 

[dmaziuk]

How many night dives have you been on where the newbie has useless depth control, is constantly shining his light in people's eyes, and holds high light right next to his compass or computer, thus destroying his night vision and deviating his compass?

Oh puh-lease: one. If you don't get the night vision thing after the first try and don't get the "other people's eyes" thing after they tell you post-dive (or shine the light into your eyes right back), you should take your OW card back to where you got from it and ask for a refund on the grounds of being too stupid to dive.

 

[NAM001]

I agree with most of this, but I would not equate cave and night diving. The stakes are a lot different, for starters, and the skill sets differ markedly.

That said, I find your last point especially interesting. It is hard to maintain depth with no visual reference, and this difficulty is exacerbated with digital depth gauges. It is really difficult not to "chase" the gauge. If you have an analog gauge, it's surprisingly easier to maintain depth without much visual reference in my opinion because you can see the rate of swing in the needle without the sampling delay that digital gauges usually have.

You are absolutely correct in all of that. Yes cave and night are totally different as both of them are to daylight diving. loss of lighting leaves both night and cave is somewhat the same delima with the obvious difference that is. the chasing the gage is a real problem and takes time to learn to control your reactions and use your sences like ears to help with it. Not to mention the reaction to seeing your first shark enter and leave your light beam with out spazzing out.

 

[NAM001]

Years ago I use to spearfish with an active duty Seal. He got in during the early 80's and used to tell about their insertions into the Russian harbors . He had just returned from Kuwait where they had seized the offshore oli rigs from the Iraqi's and took his girlfriend on a vacation. He only had a PADI ow card from high school but his girlfriend had an aow card. They wouldn't let him do a night dive but they would her. Some things don't make any sense but it's their boat so it's their rules. I would go elsewhere if possible.

I know the feeling. I have a master chief retired diver friend and had the same issue but had no OW card. MATER DIVER HARDHAT RB tech deep 200+ ft diver can not get air.

 

[NAM001]

Oh puh-lease: one. If you don't get the night vision thing after the first try and don't get the "other people's eyes" thing after they tell you post-dive (or shine the light into your eyes right back), you should take your OW card back to where you got from it and ask for a refund on the grounds of being too stupid to dive.

You would think so but it is out there and not just a little. Night diving is not part of OW. Many AOW classes do night dives after course completion and that one dive is all the limited visibility experience many have till they get tossed overboard in the ocean.

 

[dmaziuk]

You would think so but it is out there and not just a little. Night diving is not part of OW. Many AOW classes do night dives after course completion and that one dive is all the limited visibility experience many have till they get tossed overboard in the ocean.

So then the guy with that one dive gets to ride that boat to that ocean whereas those of us with the basic ow cert who actually like diving at night are told to go pound dirt. I'm sure that works out great for the boat.

 

[Bob DBF]

Yes, if you take only the initial piece, like OW, you have less training that we got back then....but it also only takes a few days instead of the several months our training took.

Yes just take the the initial peice, OW, and receive the same card that took me, and others, months of training covering much more material, pool work, and a couple more ocean dives. See my point, agencies devalue the training but did not give a restricted card, just recommendations. It also devalues the worth of the card to those that had to complete the old class.


Bob

 

[NAM001]

So then the guy with that one dive gets to ride that boat to that ocean whereas those of us with the basic ow cert who actually like diving at night are told to go pound dirt. I'm sure that works out great for the boat.

Im not saying that at all. I am saying that OW gives no limited vis diving and that AOW gives PERHAPS only one dive. NEITHER MAKES THEM QUALIFIED TO DO A NIGHT DIVE IN STRANGE WATERS. You are trying to read something into my comment that is not there. And yes boat divers do not like it so the close their eyes to the issue. Once again its a money issue and not a safety issue for the operators. I fail to understand how the interest in the boat is more important than the well being of the divers. And yet comments have been made as to whether this operators rule is a money grab to sell a course or not. I wish every operator insurer would require full card carrying proof of ability to do any of an in water dive. That means that equipment specialist boat diving etc is not an in water element of diving. It will never be proof of profeciancy but at least it will cover the formal training aspect.