Reply from Viking re: Oriskany ripoff

[Jim Lapenta]

The main point that seems to be missing from both of these threads is where does the responsibility of the captain begin and end. It begins when one sets foot on a vessel. At that time the captain is responsible for all that occurs on his watch. On the boat the captain is GOD. I don't care what anyone says. If the captain allows, condones, is aware of, or aids in activity that may be illegal he has the authority/responsibility to stop it by whatever means are necessary and at his disposal at any time. Otherwise he is just as guilty as the actual perpetraitor. By allowing this so-called responsible instructor to make off with those items and then after discovering it was illegal (if in fact he did not know it was, which given the history of the program and the publicity surrounding it, is a little farfetched to me) he has the duty to contact the authorities himself and aid in prosecuting the taker and perhaps recovery of the items. Otherwise he is no better than the slimeball with the hammer and an accessory before, during, and after the fact if I was on a jury.

 

[Guba]

This is really starting to shape up to be a fascinating study into the psyche of the country, or perhaps even the world. For centuries we've looked at the resources of the ocean as infinite. We take what we can from the sea in the forms of minerals and marine life while using it as a toilet for our waste and debris (I'm talking TRASH here, not vessels scrapped as reefs). However, we are now finding that the ocean's resources are nowhere close to being infinite. It has its limits as to how much it can give and how much it will take. Just look at the effects technological fishing is having on on fish populations and you will see what I mean.
This thread is exposing how people think about the ocean, not only in terms of how much we can take, but that we have a RIGHT to take what we want. After all, it's only junk, right? Surely, no one will miss that, but there's the demon. How much are we allowed to claim as our personal stake? Where is the line? What seems to be offensive to many is that there are those who have no problem in claiming whatever they want. It is irrelevant (in their minds) that the object of their desire BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE (the Oriskany is owned...it's NOT discarded on the bottom of the ocean as "junk"). The agency of possession takes offense at having parts of its property removed, so that makes it wrong for people to do so. That should be the end of the story, but if experience on these boards is any clue, it probably won't be. There will be those who claim that anyone who denounces theft is being "self-righteous". Those are usually the same ones who admit to wrongdoing of the same type at other sites. Just because they've gotten away with it shouldn't be seen as proof that it's right. And it shouldn't deter people from doing what they can to stop it or at least express their opinions about the wrongness of it.

 

[dbg40]

Utter hysteria over foolishness. Rational thought is beating a rapid retreat with each new post. So this is how wars start? over silly non issues brought to a boil by extremists. Wrecks are picked, period, they were in the past, and will be in the future. More will come, not a single creature will go extinct because of it, and in the end, the ocean will have its revenge, and destroy it completly, and no part will survive. It matters not that a diver removes small parts of it, and it is harsh to call them thieves, and acuse them of destroying or depleting the resources of the oceans because of it. You can lavish any cloak of importance to it that you wish, and conjure up more importance than it is worthy of. The fact is, it's not even a real wreck, it is a discarded pile of scrap that was dropped there because it was cost effective. Nothing else.

 

[Scuba]

There are two camps in this hobby in regards to wrecks: Those who seek and enjoy collecting artifacts, and those who enjoy looking without taking. Irrespective of which camp we fall under, there are legal issues to consider.

It is either legally permissible by owner, or due to non ownership, to take artifacts from a wreck - or it is not. As long as it is legal to take artifacts from a wreck, those who oppose this practice must respect it as a legal exercise of an individuals right. If it is illegal by law, or otherwise against the owners stated wish or permission, no amount of crap justification for taking an artifact will invalidate the fact one is engaging in theft or other illegal activity. Simple as simple gets.

 

[Walt1957]

What bothers the future divers even more than that is when a stupid little thing gets blown up so vastly out of proportion that it gets pulled into the general media and populus. Thus making the non-diving public think that the divers are destroying their precious historical site [that they'll never see]. The cost then goes up on artificial reefing, making scrapping more cost effective then it was before, and causing politicians in other areas to not want the headaches....

and as a result... less reefs.

all because of some junk that people wouldn't have missed anyway.

I always love the logic of "don't say anything because it will cause a scandal" ... that is what made child abuse, spouse abuse, rape and so many other wrong things so common ... if nobody speaks up then it must be ok, right?

And it may just be a hunk of junk to you, but I prefer it to be an intact hunk of junk when I get there to see it.

 

[Diver0001]

I always love the logic of "don't say anything because it will cause a scandal" ... that is what made child abuse, spouse abuse, rape and so many other wrong things so common ... if nobody speaks up then it must be ok, right?

And it may just be a hunk of junk to you, but I prefer it to be an intact hunk of junk when I get there to see it.

Absolutely nothing that divers can do to a wreck that size will make it look like anything other than what it is. To me the fear of a wreck dive being made less impressive by divers removing some of the hardware is comparable to getting all wound up that Mt. Everest will disappear if someone takes home a rock from the summit....

R..

 

[trigfunctions]

The ship was sank, at the public's expense, to be a resource to be enjoyed by all members of the public. The applicable laws say specifically that nothing is to be removed from the wreck. That is the end of the story.

Removing the items from the wreck is the equivalent of going to a war memorial in a public park and stealing one of the canons. It is illegal, selfish, and disgraceful.

And, I should add, the guy who drove the getaway car is not without culpability.

 

[Diver0001]

The ship was sank, at the public's expense, to be a resource to be enjoyed by all members of the public. The applicable laws say specifically that nothing is to be removed from the wreck. That is the end of the story.

Agreed. If it's a protected site then we need to respect and obey that.

Removing the items from the wreck is the equivalent of going to a war memorial in a public park and stealing one of the canons. It is illegal, selfish, and disgraceful.

And, I should add, the guy who drove the getaway car is not without culpability.

I don't believe it was put there as a war memorial any more than a scrap yard full of old tank parts can be considered a war memorial.

Either way, my statement about retrieving objects from wrecks was intended to be read is a more general context.

R..

 

[ReefHound]

Apparently these guys took a control panel of some sort that was an interesting thing to go look at. Apparently it took some work to get it out.

This isn't a bolt or a nail or debris.. it was something to see on the dive.

If it was this one that I saw in June, I will be pissed if it's not there on my next trip.

 

[scuba_james]

Nothing like going diving... underwater... with no keyboard to ***** with. It's impossible to get any quality dive time in if all we do is ***** and complain about stuff all day everyday. There will always be an opportunity for those of you that want to get offended to get offended if you so desire. But getting offended is not nearly as much fun as going diving.
Offended = unhappy :-( (This is a bad thing!)
Diving = happy (This is a good thing!)

Lets get wet, blow some bubbles and have some fun! Come on gang!