Ontario Diver
Guest
Gotta listen to that - I'm buying an Apeks reg.
Thanks for the clairification. I appreciate it!
Matt
Thanks for the clairification. I appreciate it!
Matt
regulator freeze up
- Thread starter buff
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He agreed with everything I said in my very first post... before we got sidelined by the science of it.
Bob3
Contributor
The lad from Apeks missed a very important point; he should've clarified that the regulator need be kept in the mouth while underwater .
Sticking it in your mouth while topside is almost guaranteeing a 2nd stage freezup. :nono:
On point #2, "2nd stage freeze ups are more common than 1st stage freeze ups" this is true ONLY if a sealed 1st stage is used, something he's used to because those fine Apeks regs all use sealed 1sts.
With an unsealed 1st, the greatest heat absorption (biggest pressure drop) is going on in the 1st stage, which is why we see our 1sts caked with ice all the time & not our seconds. (only makes sense, eh?)
To NetDoc; "AND, I hate over-simplification of complex processes" that's why I called it "regulator freeze 101". It was geared towards the basic level, and I was stating things in terms even my roomie's cat could understand. (if she cared)
Sticking it in your mouth while topside is almost guaranteeing a 2nd stage freezup. :nono:
On point #2, "2nd stage freeze ups are more common than 1st stage freeze ups" this is true ONLY if a sealed 1st stage is used, something he's used to because those fine Apeks regs all use sealed 1sts.
With an unsealed 1st, the greatest heat absorption (biggest pressure drop) is going on in the 1st stage, which is why we see our 1sts caked with ice all the time & not our seconds. (only makes sense, eh?)
To NetDoc; "AND, I hate over-simplification of complex processes" that's why I called it "regulator freeze 101". It was geared towards the basic level, and I was stating things in terms even my roomie's cat could understand. (if she cared)
Lost Yooper
Guest
Bob3 is right. Any regulator can freeze if proper techniques aren't adhered to. A sealed first only helps so much. The real problem lies in the second stage, and the techniques used by the diver, both on the surface and underwater.
Mike
Mike
sharpenu
Contributor
If you decrease your IP to reduce the chance of freeze up, you must remember that you are diving in cold water. This results in a higher demand for air. (increased metabolic rate to maintain core temp) At the time you need more air, you are making it more difficult to get that air due to the decreased IP. Depending on demand, regulator specs and a few things I probably haven't thought of, this could make for a BIG difference.
CheeseWhiz
Contributor
Even though this is getting farther from the original thread all the time, I think it's important that we call understand what's going on with regulator freezing. "Knowledge is power" as someone once said.
Netdoc: regarding the carb freezing chat. I'm afraid it's not the fuel that's causing the freezing. I've got a degree in mechanical engineering and took quite a few physics/thermodynamics/fluid flow courses (I still wake up in a cold sweat at night!). The following quote is from the book "Combustion Engine Processes" by L.L. Lichty: "An adiabatic pressure drop with saturated air that results in an increase in kinetic energy of the mixture, such as occurs at the throttle for part-load conditions, results in a drop in temperature that makes the mixture supersaturated. Thus ice will form without any volatile fuel in the mixture. This is termed expansion cooling."
And, just 'cause I can't resist, this quote from the US Navy Diving Manual, 11-2.4: "The single-hose regulator is susceptible to freezing. The first and/or second stage of the single-hose regulator may freeze in the free-flow position after a few minutes of exposure in cold water. The single-hose regulator should be kept in a warm place before diving. It is important that the diver test the regulator in a warm place, then refrain from breathing it until submerging. When returning to the surface, the regulator should remain submerged and the diver should refrain from breathing from the regulator until resubmerging. The diver's time on the surface should be kept to a minimum. Once under the water, chances of a freeze-up are reduced. However, if a regulator is allowed to free-flow at depth for a little as 5 seconds, freeze-up may occur. The diver should therefore avoid purging the second stage of the regulator when diving in cold water. If water needs to be purged from the mouthpiece, the diver should do so by exhaling into it."
Hope this helps.
Netdoc: regarding the carb freezing chat. I'm afraid it's not the fuel that's causing the freezing. I've got a degree in mechanical engineering and took quite a few physics/thermodynamics/fluid flow courses (I still wake up in a cold sweat at night!). The following quote is from the book "Combustion Engine Processes" by L.L. Lichty: "An adiabatic pressure drop with saturated air that results in an increase in kinetic energy of the mixture, such as occurs at the throttle for part-load conditions, results in a drop in temperature that makes the mixture supersaturated. Thus ice will form without any volatile fuel in the mixture. This is termed expansion cooling."
And, just 'cause I can't resist, this quote from the US Navy Diving Manual, 11-2.4: "The single-hose regulator is susceptible to freezing. The first and/or second stage of the single-hose regulator may freeze in the free-flow position after a few minutes of exposure in cold water. The single-hose regulator should be kept in a warm place before diving. It is important that the diver test the regulator in a warm place, then refrain from breathing it until submerging. When returning to the surface, the regulator should remain submerged and the diver should refrain from breathing from the regulator until resubmerging. The diver's time on the surface should be kept to a minimum. Once under the water, chances of a freeze-up are reduced. However, if a regulator is allowed to free-flow at depth for a little as 5 seconds, freeze-up may occur. The diver should therefore avoid purging the second stage of the regulator when diving in cold water. If water needs to be purged from the mouthpiece, the diver should do so by exhaling into it."
Hope this helps.
CheeseWhiz
Contributor
Lost Yooper: regarding your comment re the respiratory shock theory not holding much water. While I've got it out, I will once again refer to the US Navy Diving Manual, 2001 edition.
"Inhaled gases are heated in the upper respiratory tract. More energy is required to heat the denser gases encountered at depth. Thus, heat loss through the respiratory tract becomes an increasingly significant factor in deeper diving. In fact, respirataory shock can develop if a diver breathes unheated gas while making deep saturation dives at normal water temperature." Note the key word "saturation."
While on the same subject, they have a comment on "Laryngeal Stimulation." (I think I saw that movie back in college): "Inhaling a small amount of water can induce spasm of the laryngeal muscles and possibly cause airway obstruction."
If you're interested, you may want to go on over to ScubaDoc's domain and raise this issue. It surfaced last summer in his ScubaDoc newsletter. At that time, Ern said that the Navy Diving Lab in Panama City is conducting some research into this very phenomena, but the study is classified at this point. Guess they don't want us to know how many divers are gagging at 300 feet.
"Inhaled gases are heated in the upper respiratory tract. More energy is required to heat the denser gases encountered at depth. Thus, heat loss through the respiratory tract becomes an increasingly significant factor in deeper diving. In fact, respirataory shock can develop if a diver breathes unheated gas while making deep saturation dives at normal water temperature." Note the key word "saturation."
While on the same subject, they have a comment on "Laryngeal Stimulation." (I think I saw that movie back in college): "Inhaling a small amount of water can induce spasm of the laryngeal muscles and possibly cause airway obstruction."
If you're interested, you may want to go on over to ScubaDoc's domain and raise this issue. It surfaced last summer in his ScubaDoc newsletter. At that time, Ern said that the Navy Diving Lab in Panama City is conducting some research into this very phenomena, but the study is classified at this point. Guess they don't want us to know how many divers are gagging at 300 feet.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a super die hard Scubapro guy post on this thread saying that sealed first stages are totally unnecessary and that nothing is as good as a Scubapro piston reg because they are the best and blah, blah, blah.
Sorry...I just had to say it because I've seen it so much in the past on this board. I'm not knocking Scubapro...I'm sure they are GREAT regs but usually in threads like this there is always a flame war over Scubapro vs. Apeks.
Sorry...I just had to say it because I've seen it so much in the past on this board. I'm not knocking Scubapro...I'm sure they are GREAT regs but usually in threads like this there is always a flame war over Scubapro vs. Apeks.
stingray01
Guest
Wow, this is a very "information packed" thread. Being a "soon to be NW diver" I was very interested in this thread and finding out the answer to buff's original question. After reading all of this I want to make sure that I have something clear then:
So to prevent 2nd stage freeze up (or lessen the chance) it appears that you shouldn't breath the reg or even place it in your mouth on the initial entry dive in cold water until you are submerged? (just a newbie jumping in and trying to follow you guys..
)
Bob3
Contributor
Maybe the reason we're not hearing from these folks is that they went diving in cold water & their regs froze up...
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