Regs need servicing...

[Glub]

What happened to SeaJay is one of my biggest fears. Man - I feel your pain!

and lets face it - if I can learn from anothers misery, I'm gonna.

Plus - if fear of ham handed LDS screwing up a perfectly good reg is gonna keep me from getting it serviced, well, that can't be good.

Servicing your own doesn't appear to be rocket science - I'm pretty sure I can handle it. I'll build the IP Gauge, get the book, etc.

What I want your guys opinion on is:
Now remember this is STRICTLY servicing I am talking about. I know all the arguments diaphram VS. piston - sediment, freezeup, etc. I am a WCWW (Warm clear Water Wuss).

Which is generally easier and/or cheaper to service: diaphram or piston?

Are some brands easier and/or cheaper to service?

I've dived (and liked) Apeks us4/AT20 and a SP MK16/380 but my alltime favorite was diving a Oceanic PX2/Gamma. I'm told a Gamma is just a delta without the diver adj knob.

How does Oceanic measure up - IN SERVICING to SP and Apeks?

Many thanks

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Oh... My... God...

I'm traumatized.

Seriously.

That's the last time I go into ANY LDS. Period.

There's one place that's earned my trust... EE in High Springs. But that's it.

That's the last time I ever go to the Dive Locker.

Too... Much... To... Tell. I can't even think straight.

Some of the conversations that went on while I was there:

"Yeah, that's the new HUB system. It's our best BC."

"Mr. Bayne, some of the components inside your first stage were in backwards... Who else has worked on them?" (They're five months old - nobody's ever worked on them.)

"Wow... I've never seen one of those before." (Referring to the fact that my MK16's got a diaphragm in it.) "There's supposed to be a piston in here."

"You need some hose protectors on there... If the high pressure hose blows, it'll smack you in the face." (How a hose protector would prevent this is beyond me... Not to mention that getting "smacked in the face" is the least of my worries if a high pressure hose goes.)

"Why such a long hose?" (I show him how it goes together, and tell him, "I wreck... So if I'm donating air to a buddy during an emergency, and have to leave through a small opening, the long hose is necessary.") His response: "Hey, Ben, come over here and look at this guy." (Laughs) "Man, I wouldn't want to dive with you, buddy. That thing's gonna kill you." (I wanted desperately to show him that the rig is right out of the PADI AOW manual (p.8), but I just kept my mouth shut.)

(On receiving my regs back - and as he handed it to me, I could just SEE the question marks above his head... Not exactly encouraging.) "I think I fixed the creep problem... Let me know if it doesn't work."

(As he hands me a bill for $119) "I replaced everything." (Remember, the regs are 5 months old) "115 dives is a lot of dives on a reg... You should service it more often."

(On me asking him what sort of lube is used, to ensure that it's O2 compatible) "We only use Cristolube." (Sigh of relief.) "It's like $200 for a three ounce tube."

As I handed the man my money (pretty ticked... What happened to $15 per stage?) I notice a nice new ding in my OMS SPG. "I don't know how that happened... But it didn't happen here. You should have a boot on that thing, anyway." (I mean, it would have taken quite a bit of force to put a ding in that thing.)

Me: "Hey, what are all of these yellow things you put all over my hoses?" Him: "They're certifications. You'll need them to get air fills. All regs must be certified for use. I didn't charge you for the extra service." Me: "Why is there one on my high pressure hose?" Him: "Well, I certified the guage, too."

Then I got this long explanation as to what was "backwards" in my first stage.

...That's the last time I let ANYBODY play with my life support.

Jeez...

At least I got one lesson: I want to do this service - from here on out - myself. Period. Only *I* will work on it as if my life depends on it.

Man, I can't believe it.

I felt comfortable with them for several reasons... One of the reasons was because of the fact that the older gentleman that worked on regs has been diving for many decades... But afterward, when I asked his opinion of the MK16, he told me, "I don't know much about them... I've never dived one." (Remember, he owns a Scubapro dealership.) "Yours is only the fourth one I've ever worked on."

Great. Just great.

Okay, who can help me open this thing up and do an inspection? He gave me all of my old parts back... And of course, they all look brand new. While I think it's still prudent to use the new stuff he put in, I feel that I at least need to open things up and see what he did.

I need to learn how to do this anyway.

That's the last time anybody touches my life support. Ever.

You chose the guy who quoted a rediculously low price and was slow enough to do it while you waited. You didn't pick him because you had reason to believe he was good. You picked him becuase he told you what you wanted to hear. There were like these super bright flashing red lights going off in my head. $15 a stage while you wait...right! Wanna buy a bridge?

Oh well, thats how most people pick classes to.

BTW, I never worked on a scubapro but there aren't many parts in a reg that can go in backward. I think he was jerking your chain cuz he could.

But hey, look at all the driving time you saved.

 

[HammerNoMore]

Genesis once bubbled...
Will cost under $200 for the most useful ones, less if you can keep it to one type of first stage (e.g. pistons, etc)

That's two reg sets serviced and they're paid for.

I own the tools for the piston line of Scubapro regs. There are no special tools needed for SP seconds.

As I said, you can really do it with most household tools and an IP guage. The $1000+ quote is if you really go all out and get things like an ultrasonic cleaner, magnehelic gauge, low pressure supply, etc, etc, etc.

 

[redacted]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I'm not concerned that I got an underhaul, and that parts weren't replaced. Let's face it, man... 115 dives or not, the regs are five months old.

What I'm worried about is that the guy didn't put things back correctly. I'm worried about permanent damage or worse... It simply stops working on me at 110'.

...And if I screw it up... I'll buy another from Leisurepro. They cost less than what this guy charged me to overhaul it.

You almost surely got what I know of as an underhaul. That is, old annual parts were removed and new one put in. Little to no diagnostic, cleaning, inspection, or testing. Probably works OK 95% ot the time so you should be fine.

As for your concerns, if parts not assembled correctly or ommited its just not going to work. If soft parts damaged, a leak may develop; but that's a PITA and not life threatening. With the exception of a turret bolt (I don't believe a Mk16 has one), the screw it up assembly is all on the outside and you can feel for things that were not tightened after the initial tighten by hand assembly. And, with the exception of that turret bolt, most connections will take some heavy handed torqueing without major damage. So I'd dive it without too much concern. Then again, while I moniter and plan gas carefully, I carry a pony so the unforseen is unlikely to become catestrophic.

And I travel with a couple spare rigs so I won't spend a day of vacation trying to get my rig repaired. If you do your own service, e-bay can be a better source than LP.

Also, while I'm only doing 50 to 60 dives a year (and my wife less) it looks to me like replacable parts can be expected to have a life span of 3 to 5 years or more with good care (rinsing & storage). On the other hand, if you let deposits (salt) get where it shouldn't be, soft parts may get damaged very quickly.

 

[SeaJay]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


You chose the guy who quoted a rediculously low price and was slow enough to do it while you waited. You didn't pick him because you had reason to believe he was good. You picked him becuase he told you what you wanted to hear. There were like these super bright flashing red lights going off in my head. $15 a stage while you wait...right! Wanna buy a bridge?

Hm.

Well, thanks a lot for pointing out my dorkedness. I would argue that I also fell for the idea that "He's been diving since 1958 and knows exactly what he's doing" and that "It's $15 per stage, and I'll replace anything that needs to be replaced for the price of the parts kit"... Implying that he would not replace anything that didn't need it. I felt that $45 to service the regs plus another $45 in possible parts (POSSIBLE) for a total of $90... Plus a service charge of $15 for same-day service... Was fair. The price really wasn't much different than what Charleston offered, but I felt more comfortable with someone whom I was reassured was experienced (in fact, they sell a class on how to service your own regs - but there ain't no way I'm going into that shop again) and I appreciated the "can do attitude," rather than the "it's gonna be six weeks" attitude. I was also confident that, at five months old (but never "set up" as one might do with a new reg), it was quite possible that all that was really necessary was some adjustments or diagnostics. What I really was looking for was for a set of expert eyes to look at the regs and tell me what was going on... Without raping me or taking six weeks to do it.

But whatever... Frankly, I have not seen a correlation between prices and the quality of workmanship as you seem to be so convinced of. My BMW, for example, is a complete piece of junk. The Honda Accord I drive is a gorgeous automobile. The BMW cost almost twice what the Honda does.

Anyway, I shouldn't be so defensive... All I can say is that nothing that can be said or argued or debated is going to make up for that experience I had yesterday.

What's worse... That hour and fifteen minute drive home was sheer hell. For an hour and fifteen minutes, I got to stew about the whole ordeal. I was much more upset about it when I got home than when I left the shop.

James, here's my take on the tools issue... I don't mind spending that sort of money to have the ability to handle any issue that comes up with what's obviously the most important part of my gear... But it's nice to know that I can start simple and graduate to the workshop with $1000 worth of tools. I like your idea.

awap, thanks for the words of encouragement. Truly, I'm 95% sure that if I took these stupid yellow "certification" tags off of my reg (violation of rule 6 ) the reg would dive just fine. But who can dive with a 5% scare zone?

I'll keep y'all updated.

Steer clear of The Dive Locker.

On the way home, while I stewed about it yesterday, a commercial on the radio came on...

"Savannah Hospital is proud to announce it's new 24-hour stroke team. Nobody in the Low Country is better equipped to handle stroke victims than Savannah Hospital. With their new, state-of-the-art heart monitoring and CAT scan department, stroke victims are now able to get the peace of mind that the residents of the Low Country are looking for."

I came damn close to calling an ambulance... Not that I'd ever use that word, of course.

The commercial was the highlight of my day.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You're right SeaJay, there is not a one to one correlation between price and quality. However, after many years of designing/specing/buying and quoting custom equipment I can say that when one quote is way less or way more than the usual spread you need to look and see why. Sometimes it's because they really didn't understand what was asked for therefore quoted something totally different than the others. Sometimes they're low-balling to get market share. Sometimes they just aren't any good and don't charge much. If they don't value their time and work then why should you. Once in a great while it's because they really found a smarter way to do the thing but that doesn't happen often.

The larger the spread in quoted prices the more homework is likely to be required to figure out why.

As stated before. The going rate around here is about $70 plus parts for a first and second stage. That's $35 per stage. More than twice what your guy quoted. If som one is willing to do it for that I would be real interested in why. He might just be a nice guy but I doubt it.

 

[Genesis]

It takes me about an hour to do a first and two seconds, in time. That's using all the "right tools" and cleaning everything.

I can do the same job in 15 minutes with doing nothing other than throwing in a parts kit, but that's unwise, and besides, I typically change ALL the O-rings, not just the ones in the parts kit!

So from where I sit, $65-70 for labor is about right, assuming you're buying skilled labor - its an honest hour's work.

If I was gonig to do it as a "job", that's about what I'd charge to do it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
It takes me about an hour to do a first and two seconds, in time. That's using all the "right tools" and cleaning everything.

I can do the same job in 15 minutes with doing nothing other than throwing in a parts kit, but that's unwise, and besides, I typically change ALL the O-rings, not just the ones in the parts kit!

So from where I sit, $65-70 for labor is about right, assuming you're buying skilled labor - its an honest hour's work.

If I was gonig to do it as a "job", that's about what I'd charge to do it.

I agree. Once in a while you get a really scuzzy one that's hard to clean and some are spotless so it kind of averages out. It takes me a little longer because I'm real anal about adjusting second stages but I don't charge extra for that. LOL

 

[SeaJay]

I just checked out the schematics (thank you thank you thank you, awap!)

Okay, the "mystery and magic" has disappeared. This thing will be cake as compared to the things I've done before.

This is great.

I can't believe I drove an hour and a half, basically, each way... To subject myself to that crap... And then to pay $110 for it! Ugh.

The bottom line is that no doubt, the first time I open this thing up, it'll take me three or four hours to fondle, learn, see, understand, and all of that stuff - for the first stage. The second will take me an hour - maybe two.

...And I'll spend a little money on the right tools for the job...

...And then the problem will forever be solved. And I'll have a true understanding of what's going on in there... A great asset when purchasing a new reg, fixing an old, diagnosing problems, and basically using the thing to keep myself alive.

Man, I'm excited.

I'll keep y'all waaay close so that if I run into any questions along the way, I'll have y'all to fall back on...

Looks like I could basically disassemble and reassemble the first stage without too much difficulty. The second stage should be cake. I can't believe what a big deal I made of this.

Anyone here ever done a MK16 rebuild before? I'm looking for tips and pointers. A familiararity with the adjustments, too... As in, what adjustments need to be redone because of disassembly?

Y'all are great. I never stop learning on this board.

 

[Genesis]

I'm anal about seconds too.

The oddity is that balanced seconds are easier and MUCH faster than unbalanced to get set right! At least most are - the exceptions are those you have to depressurize in order to change the balance chamber setting.

Bizarre eh?