Redundant buoyancy in warm weather

[The Chairman]

My rant is about the Cave divers that think that Cave Diving protocols and gear should be adopted for all ocean diving...there are so many like this, it is mind boggling.

Actually, this is DIR's legacy to the diving world: one solution fits all. Most cave divers I know are fine changing gear from one environment to another. Nothing like a holistic approach to anything to make assholistics out of ordinary people.

 

[danvolker]

Actually, this is DIR's legacy to the diving world: one solution fits all. Most cave divers I know are fine changing gear from one environment to another. Nothing like a holistic approach to anything to make assholistics out of ordinary people.

I guess people get what they want out of anything. Even the mighty Net Doc!

Since I had a major hand in spreading DIR, the people I dived with, and chatted with a lot, will not believe DIR is or was about one solution fitting for everything. You might recognize that I deviate from the GUE model in a number of ways--but everything I do "is DIR" by George...for Ocean.

For cave, I don't care about it, and will not suggest much of anything for it...

Particularly when George and I did DIR demos, we were showing divers how to incorporate "some" DIR ideas and gear.....the only push for 100% of George's config was with those that wanted to join the WKPP and dive in the team, in Wakulla and related power caves.

 

[HIGHwing]

Highwing....I am "generalizing".....my comments/observations obviously would not apply to an issue like this. My rant is about the Cave divers that think that Cave Diving protocols and gear should be adopted for all ocean diving...there are so many like this, it is mind boggling.

As a Full Cave diver, I agree with the philosophy of diving yourself rigged for cave anywhere, anytime. I don't live next to the caves. To survive in a hostile environment like a cave, I feel practicing and keeping my kit as similar as practical in a variety of environments, including open water, benefits me. Muscle memory of where things are located, more time/experience with the buoyancy characteristics of my dry suit, and using cylinders in a specific configuration all benefit me when I'm in an overhead environment. In other words, practice makes perfect. It's unreasonable to assume divers would refine their kit and skills exclusively in an overhead enviroment when an open water environment is readily available. I can't tell you how many dives I've made off a recreational boat in Lauderdale rigged suitably to dive Eagles Nest. The thing is I'd rather refine my kit and skills as much as possible without the hard ceiling over my head. Once I have everything dialed in, then I feel comfortable in the caves.

 

[danvolker]

One other thing....a pretty big underline for this issue about how everything needs to be just one way...not....

If you watch the DIR 3 video, very early in the video George makes a huge point that DIR is not about getting to become some kind of higher order of diver---he absolutely wanted to make it clear that he DID NOT SEE cave diving as being a "HIGHER ORDER OF DIVING".....It was a different place, with some different rules.

George and I both worked hard to point out that Recreational diving was the most important aspect....and the most important issue is/was how much FUN you can have.
With our DIR ideas, most recreational divers could find a way to have bigger adventures, more safely. The long hose and necklace reg...and the concept of DIR buddies..ir DIRish buddies....was among our biggest message concepts.
We pushed for no "danglies", things that would catch on the bottom if you were "belly to the bottom" and frog kicking.....

We blasted swimming overweighted with head up and feet down...but we did not fixate on trim as is common today.
Our mission, was to give DIR tools to recreational divers, that would be using a wide variety of gear....the whole Holistic Approach was about diving at Wakulla...it was not implicit in our discussions with recreational divers. That came more from guys like YOU NetDoc, that re-interpreted our message--some with some spins we would have argued strongly against.

 

[victorzamora]

only the GUE divers who chose to wear drysuits had chronic leakage problems.

Not a comment either way, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. Kev, YOU had chronic leakage problems didn't you? Wasn't YOUR suit leaking water?

Get it? Wetsuit vs drysuit. The wetsuit stays wet so it's supposed to leak?

Whatever....I thought it was funny

 

[danvolker]

As a Full Cave diver, I agree with the philosophy of diving yourself rigged for cave anywhere, anytime. I don't live next to the caves. To survive in a hostile environment like a cave, I feel practicing and keeping my kit as similar as practical in a variety of environments, including open water, benefits me. Muscle memory of where things are located, more time/experience with the buoyancy characteristics of my dry suit, and using cylinders in a specific configuration all benefit me when I'm in an overhead environment. In other words, practice makes perfect. It's unreasonable to assume divers would refine their kit and skills exclusively in an overhead enviroment when an open water environment is readily available. I can't tell you how many dives I've made off a recreational boat in Lauderdale rigged suitably to dive Eagles Nest. The thing is I'd rather refine my kit and skills as much as possible without the hard ceiling over my head. Once I have everything dialed in, then I feel comfortable in the caves.

And my point, is that if you are dialed in for Eagles Nest, you are sub-standard for Palm Beach, Fiji, Mona Passage, and many of the best ocean dive locations in the world.....The "caricature" I am suggesting is seen all to often in Lauderdale or Palm Beach on recreational depth dives.....it will be a diver with doubles on ( meaning you move slowly with all the huge extra drag), and with a drysuit on...adding even more drag and inability to move around EASILY when exposed to a current.....let me say this again.....those properly ocean configured, will move EASILY AND WITHOUT EFFORT, when they CHOSE to be exposed to the current in pursuit of their dive mission on a dive.....the Cave diver would find this either impossible, or very demanding....I will be happy to demonstrate this anytime...you configure in doubles and dry suit....forget me...I will put Sandra and a couple other divers in the same dive, configured to be slick and functional in the environment of South Florida ( or Fiji, or Mona, whatever), and they will move EASILY around in places YOU will not be able to move around in without breathing hard--if at all. Put me in my doubles and drysuit and I will have the same problem--I will be working too hard, breathing rate will be way up....and worse, the easy and relaxing non-effort of the dive is LOST...all for the mistake of cave standardization.

What else is wrong with Cave divers doing ocean dives like they do cave? Watch a bunch of them jump in, and float on the surface for a minute doing surface checks and taking their time.....and being blown 400 yards beyond thye bottom structure that had been planned for them. We are talking the wrong standards for ocean.

 

[HIGHwing]

And if you're not my dive buddy, why do you care? So the captain has to push two little sticks forward and turn the wheel an extra three cranks to come pick me up. Big deal, do your job.

 

[danvolker]

And if you're not my dive buddy, why do you care? So the captain has to push two little sticks forward and turn the wheel an extra three cranks to come pick me up. Big deal, do your job.

For most diveboats, it get's to be problematic if 6 divers go down like they are "supposed to" on a drift dive, and then another group of buddies(say the cave divers--or, a couple of macro divers on a drift dive) does something that can physically separate the 2 groups by over a mile in the next hour....

 

[The Chairman]

Since I had a major hand in spreading DIR,

Make no doubt about it. I don't think you, JJ or even GI3 were as aggressive about standardization as were some of the second and third generation DIR divers. They took the concept to a different, albeit a more belligerent level. Even more so than GI3's legendary flames! It's a lot like Christianity where people are killed in the name of Love. Things get twisted, even the moniker "stroke" which many DIR divers think applies to any non-DIR diver. They had no clue it actually referred to them. I have no issues with DIR or GUE in principle which is probably why I was featured in a GUE promotional video. Just think of me as GUE's strokesperson.

At issue here are that many divers utilize steel tanks in the ocean and they are not balanced by any means. A failure of their BCD would put them between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The OP is asking how they can add redundancy to their kit and the thread has devolved into bashing/defending dry suits. Exposure protection is an extremely personal decision. Thinking that anyone's specific decision would be right for everyone else shows a certain naivety or an intolerance toward others. While I find such arrogant intolerance funny, others take a personal exception to it and respond rather unkindly towards it. You can see the flames starting to grow in here and I'll bet the intolerant have no clue that they are the ones doing most of the fanning.

But, back to the OP. So far the options presented are:

1. dive only aluminum tanks
2. drysuit
3. dual bladder BC
4. SMB or lift bag
5. dive only a balanced rig

Did I miss any here? Personally, I stick with #3 if I'm diving doubles and #5 if I'm diving a single steel.

 

[RJP]

What else is wrong with Cave divers doing ocean dives like they do cave? Watch a bunch of them jump in, and float on the surface for a minute doing surface checks and taking their time.....and being blown 400 yards beyond thye bottom structure that had been planned for them. We are talking the wrong standards for ocean.

Anyone who does that is not "a cave diver" but rather "an idiot" really. (The two are not mutually exclusive.) I know lots of cave/GUE/tech people who know how - and are smart enough to - apply the diving approach appropriately to the situation. I've done lots of hot-drops onto wrecks - never once did an s-drill or bubble check at the surface first. We'd doubly ensure we're ready to go while on the boat, fully purge suit, and jump when we were told to do so.