Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Hartattack]

Increasing bottom time is not why divers use pony bottles. They are not used for dive planning. There are scenarios where having redundancy with a pony bottle is superior to manifolded doubles, such as 3-tank boat trips. Swapping out the primary cylinder in between dives is more practical that having two sets of doubles.

Let's not pound a square peg into a round hole.

You have to look at the forest, not just the trees of your choice if you are going to have a meaningful conversation.

While I teach min gas in open water courses and detailed dive planning, given the poor viz, sometimes currents, and realities of not having a dive buddy in view at all times, redundant air sources have their place.


I don't think the data supports this. Bret Gilliam presented at DEMA a long time ago that the number of recreational divers far eclipse the number of technical divers, and they also keep diving for a lot longer.

When I started diving, I never thought I'd get into technical diving, nor rebreathers. But I'm in the minority here.

You need to accept the reality that the vast majority of divers are not interested in team based diving. They want to look at pretty fish (one of my favorite activities). And the largest agencies focus on meeting this market demand. Most just wanted to be herded like cats while they follow a dive guide. That's reality.

Calculdating min gas is irrelevant if catastrophic gas loss occurs. If a first stage fails shut like happened to Graham: My Own Out of GAS Experience, you better be right next to your buddy (unlikely) or have a pony (more reliable than any buddy). Burst disks failing (which I've seen), hoses bursting, etc. do happen. Just rarely.

Could you please add my entire quotes? Some of these replies are cherry picked and were answered in my view if you add the entire comment.

E.g.

Your statements:
"You have to look at the forest, not just the trees of your choice if you are going to have a meaningful conversation."

"I don't think the data supports this. Bret Gilliam presented at DEMA a long time ago that the number of recreational divers far eclipse the number of technical divers, and they also keep diving for a lot longer."



My entire quotes:
"Clarification: My argument is NOT about ascent profiles, catastrophic failures, buddy separation, or any other hypothetical problem someone on this thread comes up with to somehow detract from my original recommendation/point. However, please debate those all if you choose to; I, on the other hand, will stay out of those conversations. I am giving my example of why I do not use a pony bottle, nor do I recommend them."

The thought process for this type of instruction is to lead your divers by beginning with the end goal in mind. In my agency, most come to achieve their dreams of becoming cave and technical divers. Starting them out on the right dive planning foot (Fin) is crucial. Moreover, learning how to calculate reserve gases is a building block method that allows them to calculate further their Surface Consumption Rate, Rule of Halves, Thirds, and All-Gas Available Dive scenarios. In addition, one can now have the ability to calculate gas consumption in the team with different size tanks. With that said, this starts in what we call fundamentals and is a recreational skill. One could choose to never go into technical diving, and they would still learn how to do this in the Recreational 1/2 and, level 3 courses in my agency.

Thank you

 

[Angelo Farina]

If a first stage fails shut like happened to Graham: My Own Out of GAS Experience, you better be right next to your buddy (unlikely) or have a pony (more reliable than any buddy). Burst disks failing (which I've seen), hoses bursting, etc. do happen. Just rarely.

I agree. These things do happen.
During a three-months period which I spent working as divemaster in a resort at Maldives I witnessed a significant number of O-ring failures on yoke-valves.
It was a batch of bad O-rings (of too low Shore durometry) causing the problem. But on that island there was nowhere for purchasing good O-rings. So we were experiencing an average of 2-3 O-ring extrusions per day...
Most on the boat, but some while diving.
It is not a nice experience...
Luckily enough our resort was equipped with tanks mounting Italian-style double valves.
And our safety regulations mandated for always employing two complete independent regs.
So when the O-ring did extrude underwater it was just matter of closing the affected valve and continuing breathing with the other reg.
But I see how, using single valves, only a pony tank provides the required redundancy for ensuring a safe, controlled ascent after the O-ring extrusion.
A DIN valve is safer, but still I think that also purely rec divers should not rely on a single first stage, even if DIN: some redundancy is always required. And if the tanks do not have double valves, then a pony tank is the obvious choice...

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Could you please add my entire quotes?

No, as you go down rabbit holes.

Some of these replies were answered in my view if you add the entire comment.

I did read the entire thing. I don't think you did answer (and see what I did there?)

E.g.

Your statements:
"You have to look at the forest, not just the trees of your choice if you are going to have a meaningful conversation."

"I don't think the data supports this. Bret Gilliam presented at DEMA a long time ago that the number of recreational divers far eclipse the number of technical divers, and they also keep diving for a lot longer."



My entire quotes:
"Clarification: My argument is NOT about ascent profiles, catastrophic failures, buddy separation, or any other hypothetical problem someone on this thread comes up with to somehow detract from my original recommendation/point. However, please debate those all if you choose to; I, on the other hand, will stay out of those conversations. I am giving my example of why I do not use a pony bottle, nor do I recommend them."

The thought process for this type of instruction is to lead your divers by beginning with the end goal in mind. In my agency, most come to achieve their dreams of becoming cave and technical divers. Starting them out on the right dive planning foot (Fin) is crucial. Moreover, learning how to calculate reserve gases is a building block method that allows them to calculate further their Surface Consumption Rate, Rule of Halves, Thirds, and All-Gas Available Dive scenarios. In addition, one can now have the ability to calculate gas consumption in the team with different size tanks. With that said, this starts in what we call fundamentals and is a recreational skill. One could choose to never go into technical diving, and they would still learn how to do this in the Recreational 1/2 and, level 3 courses in my agency.

You started this in a basic scuba forum. You can dive whatever you want using whatever philosophies you want. However, to deny that pony bottles have a legimitate place in recreational diving is simply denial of how many people enjoy diving.

The number of divers who want to get into technical/cave diving is likely a very small percentage and these people are best served by niche agencies.

Thank you

You're welcome

 

[Alurpal]

It was a batch of bad O-rings (of too low Shore durometry) causing the problem. But on that island there was nowhere for purchasing good O-rings. So we were experiencing an average of 2-3 O-ring extrusions per day...

I have pretty limited experience but this seems like a poor practice for a dive operation. Knowingly continuing to use defective equipment to rent to divers?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I have pretty limited experience but this seems like a poor practice for a dive operation. Knowingly continuing to use defective equipment to rent to divers?

As there were no good O-rings to purchase, the only other choice was to shut down.

 

[BoltSnap]

Pony bottles for recreational divers are not needed if instructors are teaching their divers how to calculate and monitor their gas effectively, and in that calculation, you add an equation for something called minimum gas or AKA rock bottom, etc. (shown above).

Independent alternate air source, pony bottles, aren't for somebody who wants to extend their bottom/dive time to the last psi in their tanks. IAAS is for the totally unexpected and unforeseen that causes rapid loss of air or having to stay at depth beyond the planned time/pressure/depth limits as in entanglements in nets or fishing lines or unexpected scenarios. You keep pressing your own very narrow and irrelevant scenarios using emotional statement to buttress your argument but it is TOTALLY irrelevant. Your rock bottom calculations are for the minimum pressure to go up when you CAN go up but they aren't for the time when you can't go up or your suffered rapid air loss that you don't have enough to make a safe ascent.

Adding a pony bottle, as some others have said, can be a crutch, and in my humble opinion, are not needed if you:

You are saying that and you are wrong. You're passing judgements and making inflammatory statements with cliche words to create emotional atmosphere to pass your argument as fact.

Dive as a team.

So in your "humble" opinion you believe that if one loses air due to any malfunction or unexpected event or is entangled u/w and consumes their main air supply, it is better to share air with their buddy than to use a true independent sufficient alternate source of air that would give plenty of air for the diver to get up to the surface at a normal ascent rate making their safety stop and then on to the surface without assistance or sharing buddy's air? You are saying that it is safer? You gotta be kidding me here.

Do you read and analyze what you write before you post it here or is it just stubbornness that makes you make such illogical and potentially dangerous statements? For me, using air from my buddy is the last resort, I rather have my own IAAS to make it up to the surface safely.

 

[tursiops]

Independent alternate air source, pony bottles, aren't for somebody who wants to extend their bottom/dive time to the last psi in their tanks. IAAS is for the totally unexpected and unforeseen that causes rapid loss of air or having to stay at depth beyond the planned time/pressure/depth limits as in entanglements in nets or fishing lines or unexpected scenarios. You keep pressing your own very narrow and irrelevant scenarios using emotional statement to buttress your argument but it is TOTALLY irrelevant. Your rock bottom calculations are for the minimum pressure to go up when you CAN go up but they aren't for the time when you can't go up or your suffered rapid air loss that you don't have enough to make a safe ascent.





You are saying that and you are wrong, you passing judgements and making inflammatory statements with cliche words to create emotional atmosphere to pass your argument as fact.




So in your "humble" opinion you believe that if one loses air due to any malfunction or unexpected event or is entangled u/w and consumes their main air supply, it is better to share air with their buddy than to use a true independent sufficient alternate source of air that would give plenty of air for the diver to get up to the surface at a normal ascent rate making their safety stop and then on to the surface?

Do you read and analyze what you write before you post it here or is it just stubbornness that makes you make such illogical and potentially dangerous statements? For me, using air from my buddy is the last resort, I rather have my own IAAS to make it up to the surface safely.

Hey, give the poor guy a break. He's just stuck in GUE-land where everybody aspires to be a technical diver.

 

[BoltSnap]

Hey, give the poor guy a break. He's just stuck in GUE-land where everybody aspires to be a technical diver.

All right, all right, if you insist

 

[grf88]

Hey, give the poor guy a break. He's just stuck in GUE-land where everybody aspires to be a technical diver and tell everybody else how they should dive.

Corrected that for you.

 

[BoltSnap]

Corrected that for you.

And "how they should think" too.