Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

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Ucarkus, First, I apologize. Not everyone has the same sense of humor (some have none) or understands sarcasm the same way.

You said:
I often get average depth of 15 meters when doing recreational diving even max was 30-40m. This means in average I am within the range of the surface..
To which I replied, sarcastically:
Cool. That means on average you won't die. Great plan.
You said:
It seems to work.
To which I replied, sarcastically:
You mean, "I haven't died yet." ?
Then you said, clearly missing my humor:
Looking at how strange your response is, I take it that you mistook my comment. Is anyone diving without redundant gas is suppose to die? I am just pointing out that in reality 50% of the time you have direct access to the surface within your basic owd training.
By the way, when you say "50% of the time" you are referring to a median, not an average; the two are different, in general.

I think your point is that if a person can do a CESA from 15m (even though the training -- if they've been trained for a CESA -- is only from 6-9m), that they are within range of the surface for a lot of their dive. You may as well have said if a person can do a CESA from 18m (max recommended depth for an OW diver) then they are within range of the surface for ALL of their dive. What is magic about 15m? It is neither the CESA training depth nor the recommended dive depth.
 
I find it remarkable that some divers believe that free diving doesn’t enhance a persons ability in the water. I free dived and spear fished for 2 years before scuba. From day one on scuba I had perfect buoyancy. No apprehension and was completely at ease in the water. In fact I borrowed a tank and reg and went scuba diving.
 
I find it remarkable that some divers believe that free diving doesn’t enhance a persons ability in the water.
What prompted you to conclude that? IMO, there are many benefits; however, I believe the recent statements here were directed specifically at performing a CESA.

Back to the original topic, we attempt to arrange for an AAS to avoid the risk of barotrauma, and the default approach is the buddy system. If that isn't viewed as a reliable implementation for that particular dive (for whatever reason), my preference is to arrange for a different AAS (i.e., a pony) rather than scrap the entire concept.
 
5. More I free dive to the depths I scuba dive, the more I feel confident I can make it to the surface in an emergency. This is great way of preparing for an emergency without actually practicing cesa with scuba gear from depth.
I am glad that freediving gives you the confidence to know that you can make it to the surface from that relatively shallow depth. I am not a freediver, but I, too, have that confidence. In fact, I am confident I can do it from any recreational depth.

I have written many times before that CESA is badly taught in standard OW training, largely because it gives students the impression that they are unlikely to make it successfully. That idea is ingrained in them by the requirement for a horizontal CESA. They learn from that exercise that they must start with a truly full breath, and their ability to make it the whole way is roughly equivalent to their ability to hold their breath that long. You seem to have gotten this idea yourself.

Ascending vertically to the surface is an entirely different experience, and the ability to get a full breath and the ability to hold that breath have no importance. As I said earlier, the navy has for more than a half century taught submariners to escape to the surface from greater depth than we are talking about by first exhaling ALL the air in their lungs and then exhaling all the way up.
 
@tursiops , thanks for clarification. 15m is mostly arbitrary. I base it what I see on my DC as average depth if I do a 30m 60 minutes dive which is the mainstay profile of the rec scuba diving. 18 is obviously based on owd limit, you interpreted correctly.
There's no evidence of this whatsoever. Far more freedivers die every year than do scuba divers so that must not be true.

note: I don't believe any of the above, I'm just firing back your own arguments about pony bottles reframed as freediving so you can see how they look, but if you want to argue about evidence and pony bottles, you ought to argue about the evidence that freedivers can do a cesa better than the average scuba diver.
You are welcome to hit as long as the punch is not below the belt. I sound not so positive about pony because of those documents I shared. I literally searched phrase "pony" and read matches and I could not conclude anything in favor of pony, at least I am doing an effort to use unbiased information. It would be nice if everybody else did that as well.
They learn from that exercise that they must start with a truly full breath, and their ability to make it the whole way is roughly equivalent to their ability to hold their breath that long. You seem to have gotten this idea yourself.
I think you misunderstood my mention of the 30seconds breathhold and jumping into conclusions. My point was "folks it is easy to freedive to 15 meters, it requires only 30seconds of breath hold, which any scuba diver should be able to. Go practice in safe manner and lets see how confident you will feel about doing a cesa after you master it". Rest is your interpretation. Breathhold is not relevant, I repeat, only reason I mention it to encourage scuba divers that they can free dive easily to the depths they are normally scuba diving and likely to do a cesa from. Sure it is not identical exercise but what other exercise there is closer than vertically going down and up to 30m?
I nearly regretted I mentioned free diving. I did not think I would hit a nerve.
 
So the instructors out there, you don't find open water students with extensive experience in the water through snorkeling/freediving/various sports have an average of greater comfort in the water which accelerates their learning? (as we all know stress inhibits learning).

No one said that people who are not freedivers can't learn to do a CESA comfortably. I don't know why the Navy is dragged into this.

Back in the day, I'd imagine with J-valves that were accidentally triggered caused a lot of divers to perform CESAs more often than divers running OOG today. I will admit I have no data backing this, other than comments by long time divers mentioning doing it. So having to do it from time to time was a non-event. Long time divers, please correct me.

Some divers may occassionally practice CESAs, but again, I don't have data, but I would be willing to wager it is not a large percentage.

The debate of pony bottle vs buddy proximity vs CESA after 77 pages has yet to be resolved. I'd be willing to wager this debate is gong to go on for another 10 pages. Does anyone think it will hit 100?
 
What prompted you to conclude that? IMO, there are many benefits; however, I believe the recent statements here were directed specifically at performing a CESA.

Back to the original topic, we attempt to arrange for an AAS to avoid the risk of barotrauma, and the default approach is the buddy system. If that isn't viewed as a reliable implementation for that particular dive (for whatever reason), my preference is to arrange for a different AAS (i.e., a pony) rather than scrap the entire concept.
A few posts claimed free diving was no benefit to scuba and one posted it might even be a hindrance, concluding a free diver might be inclined to hold there breath if needing to do a CESA. A competent free diver could in fact fully exhale at depth and complete a very controlled assent in complete confidence of reaching the surface.
 
There's no evidence of this whatsoever. Far more freedivers die every year than do scuba divers so that must not be true.

note: I don't believe any of the above, I'm just firing back your own arguments about pony bottles reframed as freediving so you can see how they look, but if you want to argue about evidence and pony bottles, you ought to argue about the evidence that freedivers can do a cesa better than the average scuba diver.
The idea of a shallow water blackout scares the crap out of me. With scuba, very few thing can hit you with no warning. A dive computer can let you know where you stand in regards to your NDL/deco obligation & Oxy-toxicity. A shallow water blackout will hit suddenly, without warning and you NEED someone to rescue you or you die.
 
A competent free diver could in fact fully exhale at depth and complete a very controlled assent in complete confidence of reaching the surface.
If by "competent" you mean "trained to do something they would never ordinarily do", then sure.

I will absolutely agree that an experienced freediver's innate understanding that "you have longer than you think" is a plus. However, I know strictly-scuba divers who have that same understanding. That's the important aspect, in my view, regardless of where it originated.
 
I cannot possibly estimate how many threads on CESA I have read in my 17+ years on ScubaBoard. The overwhelming majority of posts in those threads convey the following beliefs:
  1. I can't possibly do a CESA from more than 20-30 feet because I can't hold my breath any longer than the amount of time it takes to go that far.
  2. If I suddenly go out of air after an exhale, I can't possibly make it from any depth.
A joint PADI/DAN study about 8 (???) years ago found that the number one training-related cause of diving fatalities was an air embolism following a panicked, rapid ascent to the surface, probably because the diver held his or her breath while ascending. I will venture to say that those people almost certainly held those mistaken beliefs, which in turn led to them holding their breath.
 
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