Question re: Alternating Primary reg. & Octopus on dives

[sytech]

As I had mentioned I have 2 Atomic regs. so the ones I have are not the issue regarding quality.

However, if you read test reports in Scuba Diver (not to mention price differentials between the Primary reg. & the Octopus) one is left with the impression that for many brands there are breathing differences
between the regs, not in any dangerous sense of course but they are there.

Add to that the amount of "middling quality" gear used by "middling quality" divers and it just seems to me that making a practice of switching regs. on each leg of your dive to be a "standard operating procedure" to be a strange idea. I had never heard of it or read of it heretofore either.

Am always willing to learn.

Sy

I dont dive an octo but I have to ask, why compromise quality and buy an octo thats any different then your primary...

there are various threads on the subject already, but it may be something to look into for you because thats where your primary argument is.

 

[rstofer]

Why not breathe the octo on the way back? It is certainly a fair test of the quality of the octo and would clearly reinforce the idea that the octo should not be a piece of junk.

However, this does pose an interesting problem for the long hose people. If you are breathing your octo, the reg in your mouth is probably tied around your neck and the normal primary is probably clipped to your right chest D-ring. Just like in the Essentials video.

Now, when your buddy goes OOA, things get complicated. You probably can't pass the octo you're breathing because it is tied around your neck. Certainly some necklaces will pull off of the mouthpiece but I have seen at least one recommendation to put the bungee necklace UNDER the mouthpiece tie wrap. That 22" hose is going to seem very short! Passing the octo isn't going to be easy!

You also can't pass your normal primary because it is clipped to your harness and, should your OOA buddy go for it, it is probably upside down. That, and it will take precious seconds to unclip the reg; for either of you. And you had no advance notice like the fellows in the video.

For the normal hose divers, the issue could be the same. The octo usually has some kind of quick-release clip. That's fine, unclip the octo and breathe it. Now, where do you hang the primary? The normal hose diver may not have a snap hook on the primary. So, stuff it in a pocket.

Yup! The OOA buddy has a problem either way. But I don't see a problem for the individual diver.

I actually like the discipline of using the octo for half the dive. I don't see that it matters whether it is on the way out or on the way back. Unless there are gas source considerations...

Richard

 

[sytech]

I would have to take issue with your point that "The reason we have one (and that nearly all dive boats and operators require the divers to be equipped with one) is to ensure a safe, easy to access source of breathing gas to another diver while at depth".

That is true but we also want to have an OCTO in case there is some failure in our Primary reg... for ourselves!

It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever done a study (and it would probably be next to impossible to conduct for numerous reasons) comparing whether an Octo. is used more frequently to:

1) assist another diver
or
2) assist ourselves

I guess the closest organization that would have any insight on this would be DAN or the Mfrs. themselves but we could never know if they are giving us all the incidents and all the details.

I think the whole notion of "buddy diving" is an obsolete or unrealistic scenario especially at resorts where you may be paired with someone of questionable ability or, who was at the bar till 2:00 a.m. the night before and really shouldn't be diving the same morning anyway. Or some guy who is taking photos nowhere near where you are anyway?

Am I supposed to be carrying my OCTO for their benefit? Sorry but I really don't. I took the SDI/TDI Solo Course several years ago and since then have what I think is a much more realistic take on this whole "buddy" thing. The course basically taught that there is really only one condition where "buddy diving "may" be an advantage and that is if you and your "buddy" know each other and/or have similar experience levels.

Otherwise I have seen over and over where the "wrong" buddy caused
more problems than they were worth.

Lot's of interesting views here, but let's think about one important aspect of Octo ownership and intended use. The reason we have one (and that nearly all dive boats and operators require the divers to be equipped with one) is to ensure a safe, easy to access source of breathing gas to another diver while at depth. The benefits of this are obvious. And keep in mind that the person that is in need of that gas may be in some level of distress at the point that you are offering it to them.
So, you pass them your octo, and they get a) a mouthful of water, b) difficulty in sucking gas through it, or c) broken mouthpiece, upside down orientation, or some other issue that stands in the way of them achieving the goal, which is to satisy our mammalian needs to have something to breath. So what happens at that point? No one can accurately predict, but most of the choices fall into the "bad" to "terrible" category.
How can we reduce the risk of this? First, by purchasing and maintaining a decent quality redundant breathing source, just in case. This is no place to go cheap - if anything your octo should perform better at depth than your primary, since it will most likely be employed by a diver that is under significant stress, and may be breathing harder or faster than a relaxed diver. Second, by testing that octo, on each and every dive - first during your pre-dive check on the boat or shore, then again, after you have gotten to depth, and while you are enjoying the beginning of your dive, switch over to your alternate air source and breath from it for a minute or two.....make sure it is as ready as you are to pass it to someone else. And, with the increasing popularity of on-board octo's integrated into BCD inflators, that someone else may just be YOU!
In the technical diving community the standard has always been to pass your primary regulator to a diver in distress, the thought process behind that being that it just delivered a good breath to you, so it should be good for them.
All of our instructors teach and reinforce this practice with every diver, from open water classes to instructor candidates. Think along these lines when selecting, maintaining and testing your alternate air source on every dive. The life you save may very well be your own.

 

[redacted]

This is simple. A diver should be able to switch to his alternate at any time and be able to breath from it with no problems. It should be no more life threatening than any other routine scuba diving event.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Thank you Awap. I did certainly not mean to offend the solo diving community.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

However, this does pose an interesting problem for the long hose people. If you are breathing your octo, the reg in your mouth is probably tied around your neck and the normal primary is probably clipped to your right chest D-ring. Just like in the Essentials video.

Now, when your buddy goes OOA, things get complicated. You probably can't pass the octo you're breathing because it is tied around your neck. Certainly some necklaces will pull off of the mouthpiece but I have seen at least one recommendation to put the bungee necklace UNDER the mouthpiece tie wrap. That 22" hose is going to seem very short! Passing the octo isn't going to be easy!

You also can't pass your normal primary because it is clipped to your harness and, should your OOA buddy go for it, it is probably upside down. That, and it will take precious seconds to unclip the reg; for either of you. And you had no advance notice like the fellows in the video....

Hi Richard, that is a good observation.

What I do when testing my backup is simply hold my 5' primary in my right hand. Usually we are talking about just a few breaths to test it, but sometimes I'll swim along for a few minutes breathing the backup to give it a "good workout"

I dive single tank, so I never clip off my primary for the exact reason you mentioned. I am always ready to instantly pass my primary to my buddy if needed.

My "short" hose is actually "standard" length, not the traditional DIR 22" length. I don't care that it's not "DIR". In an emergency, if I needed to donate the backup reg, I would slip the bungie over my head and donate that reg (i.e., if my primary failed for some reason, and I had to resort to a true buddy breathing rescue). I don't ever anticipate that need, but have learned to buddy breath in the 70's with that length hose, and have no issues with doing it if needed for the conditions I dive in here in Hawaii.

It is a great idea to consider all of this stuff for sure.

Best Wishes.

 

[sytech]

Where you say "So, given that there are no air source issues (isolated doubles, pony tank, etc) I would suggest swapping every few minutes. Just to have something to do".

You MUST be kidding. Tell me that you are serious.

I have always swapped between the primary and octo. In my first setup I had an Air II integrated inflation device. I would practice swapping just to ease the boredom. FWIW, the Air II worked fine at 113 fsw.

Now I am using an octo that matches the primary and I routinely switch back and forth.

Yesterday I tried swapping between a double hose and a conventional octo. Now that is a bit more of a challenge. It takes quite a blow to clear the exhaust hose. Not that it has to be done with the last breath from the octo but it still needs to be cleared and it holds a lot of water.

So, given that there are no air source issues (isolated doubles, pony tank, etc) I would suggest swapping every few minutes. Just to have something to do.

Richard

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

.....I think the whole notion of "buddy diving" is an obsolete or unrealistic scenario especially at resorts where you may be paired with someone of questionable ability or, who was at the bar till 2:00 a.m. the night before and really shouldn't be diving the same morning anyway. Or some guy who is taking photos nowhere near where you are anyway?

Am I supposed to be carrying my OCTO for their benefit? Sorry but I really don't. I took the SDI/TDI Solo Course several years ago and since then have what I think is a much more realistic take on this whole "buddy" thing. The course basically taught that there is really only one condition where "buddy diving "may" be an advantage and that is if you and your "buddy" know each other and/or have similar experience levels.

Otherwise I have seen over and over where the "wrong" buddy caused
more problems than they were worth.

sytech: I hear you. I'm lucky that I don't have to dive with insta-buddies.

But the only reason I do use two 2nd stages to be able to assist ANY diver in my vicinity who may have a problem. They don't need to be my buddy. They are welcome to the reg in my mouth. They don't need to ask permission. Just grab it, I'll be fine, and we'll work out who owes who a beer after it is over

I do dive solo, but the vast majority of my dives are buddy dives. If I only did solo dives and knew there was no possibility of having to assist another diver I'd probably only have one 2nd stage regulator. I'd eliminate the octo. If I felt I could not get myself to the surface after a catastrophic reg failure, I'd either rig a pony or not do that particular dive. But I'm talking about warm, clear, fairly shallow tropical diving where reg failures are almost unheard of (with well-maintained regs). I'd have a different setup diving in cold, lower viz conditions.

Best wishes.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

It is hard to say exactly what the instructor meant out of context and without knowing his gear configuration.

It is more or less standard for cave divers to do an S-drill prior to a dive to ensure that both the primary and back up regs are functioning correctly and to ensure the long hose can be fully deployed, so the bakc up gets used on every dive. Some of the issues you mention like losing the reg, having to do a sweep, etc just do not apply to technical configurations with a long hose and a bungeed octo. If that issue really concerns you, then consider going with a long hose and bungeed octo.

Beyond that, an OOA diver is most likely to want the reg in your mouth, so it makes sense to train to donate the reg you are breathing and for you to bring the other reg into use -whether you are breathing the primary or back up at the time. If you dive along hose configuaration, switching to the back up just becuz, makes little sense as it would complicate gas sharing if it became neccesary. For a rec diver with two short hoses it makes little difference.

In addition, most technical divers will agree that both primary and back up regs need to be of equal quality and performance as both may potentially have to support a diver at maxmum depth under stressful circumstances.

And in general, even for a rec diver, going with a cheap octo is a bad idea as you may end up having to use it at maximum depth under stressful circumstances. In that regard, switching to your octo at the deep/stressful/hard swimming parts of your dive would be a good way to realize that your cheap octo is a POS that should be replaced.

 

[rstofer]

Where you say "So, given that there are no air source issues (isolated doubles, pony tank, etc) I would suggest swapping every few minutes. Just to have something to do".

You MUST be kidding. Tell me that you are serious.

I don't think I'm kidding. In fact, I don't even have a sense of humor that I am aware of. You know, the shortest book ever written: "100 years of German humor".

There MAY be some diving configurations where each regulator is connected to a separate tank. I have never dove such a thing but I can imagine it existing as, perhaps, isolated doubles. In this case, I suspect it may be required to breathe the octo on the way back. But, again, I have no experience with such things. I only dive a single tank. But that's what I meant by air source considerations, if that was your concern.

But I am absolutely serious about swapping regs just to relieve the boredom. In fact, years ago, my buddy and I would swap regs and swim together for a while. Just for something to do. Buddy breathing was not only taught, it was encouraged. Or I would pocket my primary and breathe off my Air II device. Anything to keep from falling asleep.

Today, I just clip off my primary and use my necklaced octo. And I plan to continue the practice with my double hose reg and octo. It will be more challenging but I think I can handle it.

Richard