Question for DM's & anyone who works on a boat....

[nolatom]

Not sure it's been mentioned, or it's too obvious to merit comment, but..

I've found rough-sea rolling-boat ascent to be simple enough if I get *both* hands on the railings before trying to get a foothold. One hand plus one foot (or even two feet) makes you unstable laterally, and you can get flipped out sideways like a flag. If you've got your handholds, then you can get your footholds. Not vice-versa.

So Hands-first, then feet, works for me. This is on a railing-type ladder like the Fling or Spree has, with fin straps around your wrists.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Not sure it's been mentioned, or it's too obvious to merit comment, but..

I've found rough-sea rolling-boat ascent to be simple enough if I get *both* hands on the railings before trying to get a foothold. One hand plus one foot (or even two feet) makes you unstable laterally, and you can get flipped out sideways like a flag. If you've got your handholds, then you can get your footholds. Not vice-versa.

So Hands-first, then feet, works for me. This is on a railing-type ladder like the Fling or Spree has, with fin straps around your wrists.

I concur.

 

[String]

I don't understand from this why it is more dangerous to take off your fins before you get out of the water

Bobbing around in rough waters risking getting hit by the ladder, having no form of propulsion to get to the ladder, out of the way of the boat or ladder or method of returning to it should you fall off the ladder.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Bobbing around in rough waters risking getting hit by the ladder, having no form of propulsion to get to the ladder, out of the way of the boat or ladder or method of returning to it should you fall off the ladder.

Non-issues with us. The boat and ladder should be moving away from the diver, and the boat can come around to pick up the diver. You guys may do it differently I guess, but I'm not sure that they way we do it qualifies us as dangerous, or not one of the sane boats.

 

[String]

The boat and ladder isnt always moving away otherwise nobody can climb it. Eventually theres a point where a diver has to approach it.

Add winds, cross currents caused by tides and a swell and no matter what boat you have the laws of physics come into play and that boat and ladder is going to be moving up and down and sideways.
Without fins you cant swim at all to approach the ladder OR get out of the way if it gets hit by a wave froma different direction and so on which does happen.

There is nothing you can do in a boat that means its nice and stationary in rough weather.

Swell from one direction, wind from another, current from a 3rd all affecting the boat - there is no way you can stop it moving up or down relative to the diver.

To have no means of propulsion in the water to get out of the way, get to the boat, get away from it if you fall off, get back to it if you fall off is lunacy.

 

[ReefHound]

To have no means of propulsion in the water to get out of the way, get to the boat, get away from it if you fall off, get back to it if you fall off is lunacy.

Your means of propulsion is your arms as you pull your way to the ladder on the rope that hangs out from it. More reliable than fins, works in virtually any speed of current without wearing you out.

The way they do it on the FG boats is with the current moving away, the boat is moored. So the water is always moving away from the boat. I guess you could pull yourself too far under the ladder but you could do the same with fins. The DMs are right there to assist and if you fall they will push you away if needed although one tends to fall "back" from a ladder. If that happens, move back and grab the drift line for another attempt. If you miss the line then... put your fins back on.

 

[The Chairman]

To have no means of propulsion in the water to get out of the way, get to the boat, get away from it if you fall off, get back to it if you fall off is lunacy.

A rope works FAR better than fins for propulsion. We call this a "tag-line" in the States and they are anywhere from 50 to 100 ft behind the boat. Grab it and pull yourself to the boat with a LOT LESS EFFORT than swimming against the current. Now, with fins removed, there is a lot less effort stepping up into the boat and far less chance of falling back in and needing propulsion all over again.

Kev does this flawlessly on his boat and has yet to lose a diver using this system. I am sure that if you are ever in his area he would be glad to demonstrate it.

 

[fisheyeview]

I have dove on Kev's boat, and a lot of others here that do live drops. I have never had a problem with getting back on the boat. (I probably did when I first started out, but memory is the first thing to go.)

I approach the boat, after it is in neutral, and they have signalled that it is okay to approach. I hand up my camera housing and them back away from the platform.

I slip my fin straps over my wrists and hold on to the TAG line. I usually wait until everyone else is aboard before I get out. I time the waves so that I plant both feet on the ladder, and grab on with both hands at the same time.

If I were to fall off while climbing aboard I've got my fins that I can put back on and wait for the boat to reposition to pick me up.

 

[Scubakevdm]

The boat and ladder isnt always moving away otherwise nobody can climb it. Eventually theres a point where a diver has to approach it.

Add winds, cross currents caused by tides and a swell and no matter what boat you have the laws of physics come into play and that boat and ladder is going to be moving up and down and sideways.
Without fins you cant swim at all to approach the ladder OR get out of the way if it gets hit by a wave froma different direction and so on which does happen.

There is nothing you can do in a boat that means its nice and stationary in rough weather.

Swell from one direction, wind from another, current from a 3rd all affecting the boat - there is no way you can stop it moving up or down relative to the diver.

To have no means of propulsion in the water to get out of the way, get to the boat, get away from it if you fall off, get back to it if you fall off is lunacy.

I really hate going over the same points over and over again, but to spare any impressionable divers the BS that you're perpetrating, I'll go through this once more. I'm gonna do this piece by piece.

The boat and ladder isn't always moving away otherwise nobody can climb it. Eventually theres a point where a diver has to approach it.

There is a tag line on the ladder and on the swim platform that divers grab onto to remove their fins, and pull themselves to the ladder with.

Add winds,

We use the winds to help us by blowing the boat away from the diver. If you approach a diver with the wind at your back, once he grabs the tag line, he will be dragged behind the boat and therefore in absolutely no danger of being crushed, whacked, or otherwise injured by the boat, the platform, or the ladder.

cross currents caused by tides

Assuming the boat and the diver are on the surface of the same water, they are equally affected by currents, and therefore this doesn't matter at all.

and a swell

Groundswell causes very long, flat waves that result in very slow and gentle rises and falls. They certainly don't push boats around, except for in the surf zone.

Swell from one direction,

doesn't matter.

wind from another,

Helps keep the diver out from under the boat.

current from a 3rd

Doesn't matter.

all affecting the boat - there is no way you can stop it moving up or down relative to the diver.

It is correct that the boat cannot be stopped from moving up and down relative to the diver, but the boat can be kept from being on or over the diver.

Look, I'm not sitting in some armchair theorizing about this, I do it for a living. I happen to enjoy a good reputation for doing it safely and for doing it well. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm going to bow out of this now, because I'm hopeful that most everyone will understand what I have written well enough to make an informed decision about the dangers of floating in the water without fins on. I will concede that my arguments are dependant on diving from a boat with a captain who knows what he's doing, but if you change that part of the equation, I think you would have to re-title the argument "The dangers of diving from boats piloted by captains who don't know what they are doing in rough seas." instead of "The lunacy of being in the water without fins on".

 

[ReefHound]

I think we need to remember that what works best in one area might not work best in another area. In general, I think the local boat operators are going to know and utilize the procedures that work best for their area.

I don't any problems with removing fins in the water. The only issue is that if your strap breaks or you drop your arms while fighting the ladder, you could lose a fin.