Question about military trained divers

[STOGEY]

Yes, I have seen those seal training movies, their main objective is to portray the seal recruit going through buds training. Yes there is alot of harrassment going on in buds training, but that is what buds and any type of special warfare raining is all about. Trying to weed out the week and keeping the strong.

I've also watched that segment with those going through the pool phase of the navy seal scuba training. Again there is much harrassment going on there too. Being trained to be a navy seal is not the same thing as being trained to be a recreational diver. The basic scuba training there has alot of sstress buiult into it so that when the seal does go into a combat mode, he can handle the situation.

If we that were being trained in recreational diving were to be given half the intensity of what they go through, I think that our type of diving would probably have alot less people getting bent in vacation spots such as Cozumel etc.

The only problem that I'd have with diving with a navay seal or other military type diver, is that I'd be afraid that I'd get into a situation that was a little over my head.
And end up getting in a situation in which both divers would have preferred not to get into.

 

[jsbromley]

the last diving the documentory showed was supposed to be the graduates...and they were on rebreathers.

Even so, they are still not considered SEALs. Each individual has to attend Army Airborne training, and then they are assigned to a Team. Once you are stationed at a team then you begin the whole training cycle over. First you attend SEAL tactical training, which is another 6 months. If you make it through that then you are assigned to a platoon. Once with a platoon you begin your avanced operator training (AOT), which usually lasts a year and a half. If your lucky, at some point during your AOT you go in front of a review board and are awarded your Trident. Then and only then are you considered a SEAL.

Your original post was not only ignorant, but a slap in the face to the young men in that video, who I am sure are much less concerned with your assessment of their skills, as with the defense and security of this great nation!

Jeff Bromley
BUD/S Class 160
SEAL Team 8

 

[MikeFerrara]

Even so, they are still not considered SEALs. Each individual has to attend Army Airborne training, and then they are assigned to a Team. Once you are stationed at a team then you begin the whole training cycle over. First you attend SEAL tactical training, which is another 6 months. If you make it through that then you are assigned to a platoon. Once with a platoon you begin your avanced operator training (AOT), which usually lasts a year and a half. If your lucky, at some point during your AOT you go in front of a review board and are awarded your Trident. Then and only then are you considered a SEAL.

My hats off to those young men, honest. even in my younger tougher days I'm not sure that I'd even attempt that. They can all be very proud for beiong able to accomplish something that is beyond the vast majority of the population and the dedication and sacrifice it takes to do it.

Your original post was not only ignorant, but a slap in the face to the young men in that video, who I am sure are much less concerned with your assessment of their skills, as with the defense and security of this great nation!

Jeff, I'm going to call BS on you here. My original post addressed specific dive skills that are required by at least some recreational agencies which are relevant to this thread concerning their civilian certification status or crossover potential.

The hurendously difficult training they endure that isn't directed toward the specific skill sets requitred by the agencies that we civilians teach for, while impressive, simply aren't relevant to this thread nor are they relevent when it comes to deciding who I will certify or why.

Can you tell me anything about the actual dive training and how it it might relate to the grading criteria that I posted above? If so that would be helpful. Can you explain to us where I was mistaken in my assessment of what I saw on the documentory or what they showd or failed to show that would mislead me. Aside from that, I know what I saw and having held instructor qualification from three agencies (two diving and one for gas blending) I am qualified to asses a students skills for OW certification. I've always taken dive instruction too seriously to fail to follow standards and standards (at least the agencies that I have taught for) do not allow instructors to hand out diving certifications for great non-diving things that a person has done.

So could you please explain where I'm being ignorant? I think there is ignorance here, along with a tendancy toward irrelevency (to the thread) but it isn't mine. Please do not confuse my honest assessment of dive skills for my appreciation or lack there of for an entire person military or not. They certainly need not be concerned with my assessment of their diving skills unless, that is, they happen to come to me or some one like me for a certification and again I'd remind you that is what the thread is about.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've also watched that segment with those going through the pool phase of the navy seal scuba training. Again there is much harrassment going on there too. Being trained to be a navy seal is not the same thing as being trained to be a recreational diver. The basic scuba training there has alot of sstress buiult into it so that when the seal does go into a combat mode, he can handle the situation.

I agree completely. It's different and not knowing anything about military dive training beyond the very little that I've seen I'm having trouble visualizing how being expert at one qualifies you for the other. Maybe it does but I'd need to see something more before I issued a certification.

If we that were being trained in recreational diving were to be given half the intensity of what they go through, I think that our type of diving would probably have alot less people getting bent in vacation spots such as Cozumel etc.

Maybe but according to DAN, in like sixty something percent of the dives that end in injury buopyancy control problems are reported. I personally have seen instances where the lack of buoyancy/position control contributed to if not was the direct cause of a diver panicing and being injured. I've also seen divers with poor technique exhibit signs of CO2 problems and panic because they thought they weren't getting air when there was plent.

It's certainly very possible that the dive training they recieve addresses these concerns but no one yet has explained how. Not one person has explained where the documentory was wrong or misleading. Rather they just want to make me out to be unpaitriotic or something because what I saw wouldn't get a card out of me.

What about other aspects of recreational dive training?

Are seals taught how to avoid damaging coral and the things that live in it? Are they taught anything about recreational charter boat procedures? What is their decompression training? From the show I refered to I got the impression that these guys were primarily being trained to dive O2 rebreathers. That means diving...above 30 ft? No need for dive tables here is there? Do they ever have to even do a safety stop or a decompression stop?

There may be very good answers to these questions but I don't know the answer and I sure couldn't certify some one without knowing. Could you?

The only problem that I'd have with diving with a navay seal or other military type diver, is that I'd be afraid that I'd get into a situation that was a little over my head.
And end up getting in a situation in which both divers would have preferred not to get into.

I don't think that would concern me. I'd be willing to do the dives I do with a qualified SEAL as long as I could dive my open circuit and leave the O2 for decompression and no explosives were involved.

 

[captain]

Several years ago a friend of mine was diving at Vortex Springs in Florida. He was at about 70 feet just inside the opening when he felt a tap on his shoulder, he turned and saw a person wearing only mask and fins. The person signaled him asking for his regulator. He handed it to the person who took a breath and swam off. This person did this several times before he headed to the surface. After surfacing my friend went over to talk with the person and found out he was a SEAL.

Captain

 

[MikeFerrara]

Several years ago a friend of mine was diving at Vortex Springs in Florida. He was at about 70 feet just inside the opening when he felt a tap on his shoulder, he turned and saw a person wearing only mask and fins. The person signaled him asking for his regulator. He handed it to the person who took a breath and swam off. This person did this several times before he headed to the surface. After surfacing my friend went over to talk with the person and found out he was a SEAL.

Captain

Great story. The only problem is that you have to go a good ways into the cave before you hit 70 ft. The entrance is at about 55 ft. There's a bit of a hump about half way (a guess not a measurement) to the gate that's right at 70 ft. I know because just past that is where we dropped our teams 70 ft bottles during the entire 03/04 mapping project there. I did that same dive over and over so many time that I don't care if I ever do it again. Check out the new map at Vortex. The survey team consisted of Steve Keene, Sue Sharples and Jason Gully. My wife and I worked as support divers (doing setup and cleanup dives, mixing gas and making sure that the survey team didn't come out to find that some free diver took their decompression gas...and they tried too.

I don't care to do it but I've known a few people who go deeper than that free diving while spear fishing. I've seen free divers lounging around inside the plane at Gilboa and cruising through the tubes at 60 ft in 45 deg water too. They weren't SEALS though...just avid free divers. The one guy I run into once in a while uses one of those mono-fins. He moves pretty slick but I like my doubles.

Going up to some one like that for gas, isn't smart and really puts them in an unfair position... unless the free diver is really in need of help of course. Did this guy not understand that or was he just showing off. If he wanted to free dive then that's what he should have been doing. Otherwise he should have been carrying his own gas!

 

[sweatfrog]

Is that was this forum is for? Could you point me to where that's stated?

Its obvious that you think this forum is for you, otherwise you wouldn't have 9 posts in two pages on this thread alone.

Could it be that some one who runs a dive shop is the one with an agenda?

Quite possibly, I have owned it for over 20 years and have been an Instructor with all 3 of the agencies that you have, plus a couple of others. I also went through BUD'S back in 68' so I guess you got my dander up. I spent have spent a lot of time U/W and will match buoyancy with anyone. Perhaps there's a little jealosy since I've had a small measure of success.

As you point out, you used the terms DIR and DIW. Myself I've never claimed to be a "DIR" diver, have no DIR training and only use the term when participating in discussions specifically related to the system formalized by GUE and the WKPP.

Maybe not, but you sure think that you're the 'resident expert' on this forum.

Why do you say you would be dead if you did it wrong? One can do a pretty poor job of diving (lets use the level mastery of the skills required by training agencies for a benchmark there ok though some require more than others)...and live through it. You can sit right in the coral and breath a lot of gas while killing it all without any threat to your own safety. Does that make it right, wrong or niether?

This comment doesn't even justify a response. That is not and never has been anyone's objective.

I didn't make the tv show. Possibly the seals shouldn't have went along with it if it wasn't an accurate representation but again I clearly stated that my comments were specifically aimed at what I saw on that show. Maybe the show was total fiction...you couldn't prove it by me.

Shows are edited to put the most drama into it so that an audience will watch it. For a 1/2 hour show, they get about 18 hours worth of tape and then the editors will start cutting.

I certainly did not trash any military organization. If you think I did I would ask that you please show me where

How about this!

I don't know how representative this training was of other military training but not only would I not certify those divers but I wouldn't take them into OW until we worked on some basics of buoyancy control, trim and finning technique in a pool where they couldn't silt me out. You'd never see any thing if they were with you in OW around here...they could silt things up from 20 ft off the bottom.

They wouldn't even survive a emt shear attack from a savy recreational diver. You could follow their bubble trail down to them in the silt cloud and they'd never see it comming. LOL

Assuming you're talking about me I can't think of a reason in the world why I would require your respect, approval or permission in order to state my opinion. Can you? What kind of repercussions would you suggest and by what authority do you propose to administer them?

Oh, I don't know? How about the spelling police.

Sorry to everyone else, writing to forums is not my intent and I don't have some of the savvy to make sure it comes out right.

 

[sweatfrog]

I just re-read my post and don't think I mentioned anything your telling me to leave about. What's up?

Gary D.

I had no intention of telling you anything like that Gary. I'm not proficient at posting, but I'm slowly learning.

To Mike,
I can answer my own queries, thank you very much.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Is that was this forum is for? Could you point me to where that's stated?

Its obvious that you think this forum is for you, otherwise you wouldn't have 9 posts in two pages on this thread alone.

The forum is for me...and for you. It did take a lot of posts to respond to all those who jumped on me too.

Could it be that some one who runs a dive shop is the one with an agenda?

Quite possibly, I have owned it for over 20 years and have been an Instructor with all 3 of the agencies that you have, plus a couple of others. I also went through BUD'S back in 68' so I guess you got my dander up. I spent have spent a lot of time U/W and will match buoyancy with anyone. Perhaps there's a little jealosy since I've had a small measure of success.

Good you went through the training. Why don't you address my concerns in relation to the standards I referenced earlier? It sounds like you're just the guy. You lost me with the success thing though.

As you point out, you used the terms DIR and DIW. Myself I've never claimed to be a "DIR" diver, have no DIR training and only use the term when participating in discussions specifically related to the system formalized by GUE and the WKPP.

Maybe not, but you sure think that you're the 'resident expert' on this forum.

Who are you to tell me what I think? Because you disagree with me? It sounds like you're trying to assume a position of some authority here by telling people what to think and say while presenting ZERO information to support your position or even stating what it is for that matter.

Why do you say you would be dead if you did it wrong? One can do a pretty poor job of diving (lets use the level mastery of the skills required by training agencies for a benchmark there ok though some require more than others)...and live through it. You can sit right in the coral and breath a lot of gas while killing it all without any threat to your own safety. Does that make it right, wrong or niether?

This comment doesn't even justify a response. That is not and never has been anyone's objective.

What hasn't been any ones objective and why doesn't it deserve a response? Youre claim was that you are alive therefor you do it right. I also am alive and we obviously do it differntly. My contention is that you can do it badly and still survive and your statement is false. Respond or not as you see fit.

I didn't make the tv show. Possibly the seals shouldn't have went along with it if it wasn't an accurate representation but again I clearly stated that my comments were specifically aimed at what I saw on that show. Maybe the show was total fiction...you couldn't prove it by me.

Shows are edited to put the most drama into it so that an audience will watch it. For a 1/2 hour show, they get about 18 hours worth of tape and then the editors will start cutting.

I'll take your word for it since I've never made a tv show. I have asked if any one had any information to add or could explain where the documentory was incomplete and no one has offered anything.

I certainly did not trash any military organization. If you think I did I would ask that you please show me where

How about this!

I don't know how representative this training was of other military training but not only would I not certify those divers but I wouldn't take them into OW until we worked on some basics of buoyancy control, trim and finning technique in a pool where they couldn't silt me out. You'd never see any thing if they were with you in OW around here...they could silt things up from 20 ft off the bottom.

How is that trashing an organization? I also followed that up with detailed assessment criteria to support that position. Based on that I would not take them to OW in a training situation until their skills were demonstrated to be appropriate for our OW training environment...which can be very silty.

They wouldn't even survive a emt shear attack from a savy recreational diver. You could follow their bubble trail down to them in the silt cloud and they'd never see it comming. LOL

oops sorry just using a little humor to make a point that some environments require something a little different no matter what the dive objective. I didn't yet realize that you were so touchy.

Assuming you're talking about me I can't think of a reason in the world why I would require your respect, approval or permission in order to state my opinion. Can you? What kind of repercussions would you suggest and by what authority do you propose to administer them?

Oh, I don't know? How about the spelling police.

You're convincing people now huh? Insult me a couple of more times and I bet every one will agree with you.

I'll ask again. Can you or any one else here fill in whatever blanks you apparantly believe that silly documentory left? If not I stand by my assessment which as stated from the start is based on one single and very small source of information. Yet I again point out that no one here has added to it. They've pointed out how hard SEAL training is...ok I agree...they've pointed out that they provide a noble service to the country...again I agree...but not one of you hot heads has said anything about the dive training or why, based on training standards, an instructor should issue a certification based on the fact that one is or was a SEAL. So, I remain of the opinion that I could not issue a recreational certification based on that alone and be consistant with training standards.

To apply pressure to the contrary is yet another insult. I mean who else should we certify because of who they are without assessing their dive skills in relation to the intended environment?

 

[MikeFerrara]

To Mike,
I can answer my own queries, thank you very much.

Good. What you can't do is tell others what to do, say or think and have them to obey.