Question about military trained divers

[MikeFerrara]

Most videographers won't take their cameras into caves, because theres lots of tasks and never enough hands to get buoyancy down pat. Its an interesting conundrum and one that tasks you at times, but you can't do everything perfectly from the getgo.

Most? I see lots of divers doing video in caves. It might be that most cave divers don't own a video cammera but the ones that I know who own one take it in caves.

This is getting way off the subject, but beginners have been scared by some of the comments made by know-it-all's on this board. The basic area isn't to turn people off to diving, rather to entice them to a wonderful and fun sport. You need to teach people to crawl before they can walk. Perfection and mastery aside, I want people to be excited about this sport I so enjoy. Because one person has an agenda, that can be precluded.

Is that was this forum is for? Could you point me to where that's stated?

Could it be that some one who runs a dive shop is the one with an agenda?

I used the term "Doing it Right" because the prevailing attitude from one particular individual seems to think that everything else is DIW. I've been diving and teaching for a long time and if I'd been doing it wrong, I'd be dead by now.

As you point out, you used the terms DIR and DIW. Myself I've never claimed to be a "DIR" diver, have no DIR training and only use the term when participating in discussions specifically related to the system formalized by GUE and the WKPP.

Why do you say you would be dead if you did it wrong? One can do a pretty poor job of diving (lets use the level mastery of the skills required by training agencies for a benchmark there ok though some require more than others)...and live through it. You can sit right in the coral and breath a lot of gas while killing it all without any threat to your own safety. Does that make it right, wrong or niether?

A comment was made on another thread that this individual had lots of experience and should be respected. Well, respect is earned. You get back what you give, and for him to trash any military organization because of what he saw on TV is unacceptably ludicrous. His surly attitude has been tolerated for way too long with no reprocussions.

I didn't make the tv show. Possibly the seals shouldn't have went along with it if it wasn't an accurate representation but again I clearly stated that my comments were specifically aimed at what I saw on that show. Maybe the show was total fiction...you couldn't prove it by me.

I certainly did not trash any military organization. If you think I did I would ask that you please show me where or stop putting words in my mouth. Of course if, in your opinion, anything that I or any one writes here is un acceptable you should use the report post button at the bottom of the post that offends you.

Assuming you're talking about me I can't think of a reason in the world why I would require your respect, approval or permission in order to state my opinion. Can you? What kind of repercussions would you suggest and by what authority do you propose to administer them?

Those with the loudest and most often heard voices don't always win, they just like to hear themselves and tout their ideas. Take it all with a grain of salt.

You of course are welcome to do that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I just re-read my post and don't think I mentioned anything your telling me to leave about. What's up?

Gary D.

I think he was telling me to leave Gary. Don't worry, I think it's ok with him if you stay just as long as you're clear on the fact that he doesn't want any of that DIR philosophy here. So lets have no more talk of anti-silting, trim, buoyancy control or any of the rest of that DIR stuff.

 

[STOGEY]

I've watched those seals documentaries many, many times. What ths guy is talking about is buds training. And yes there is a lot of harrassment going on. Would you want a person who is training to be a navy seal not to be able to handle the stress of combat? That is what the instructors are trying to do is weed out those that can't hack it.

Yes I've watched that segment of those going through buds training and the scuba segment. I have alot of respect for those that complete that type of training, specially the harrassment part. Being a recreational diver, the only problem I'd have with diving with a seal, is that I'd be more worried about doing something that would be over my head and getting the both of us in a situation that we would rather not be in.

Military training wether it being scuba training or learning how to shoot a rifle is very repetitive, if the majority of us did the type of repetitiveness that they do in buds just to be ready to dive, I'm sure there would probably be alot less people getting a hit in places like Cozumel when they go on vacations and so forth.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am a Canadian Navy Diver (Clearance Diver) and while I have had the pleasure in the past to share diving experiences with our USN diver friends and others from European nations during operations and exercises, I certainly cannot pretend to know all the training they go through, however I can attest to their competence under the surface, having shared the water column with many of them over the years. To answer the original question, our divers can get an equivalency "C" card, if they want, through a civilian diving agency on completion of a dive course. This is normally done in a manner similar to what SWEATFROG described in an earlier post. Now, to comment on "someone else's" post; I find it a bit strange that a person would attempt to convey to this forum, what that person obviously thinks is credible information, based on having seen a "movie". Having been a participant on both sides of the fence, as I am still actively diving in both the military and civilian world, It is my opinion that there are excellent divers and less than stellar ones everywhere however, most military divers that I have met over the years were pretty "clued in". I believe this is a result of the intense training they received to get qualified. For example, our "entry level" SCUBA course is 6 weeks long and encompases many hours of classroom theory which is applied beneath the surface of the water where a typical student will accumulate anywhere from 15 to 25 hours of practical diving. At the other end of the scale, a fully qualified Clearance Diver Supervisor would have attended a "collection" of dive and other dive related courses totaling over 2.5 years in length, spead over many years while gaining experience through operations and exercises as well as teaching. Surely this counts for something. I like to think I have an open mind and willingly engage in diving related conversations with some of my civilian diving friends and I have to admit that I have learned and continue to learn from them as well as from within the military, still. See you on the bottom.

I certainly have no reason to doubt your word. However, it wasn't a movie. It was presented as a documentary apparantly filmed with the cooporation of the Navy. Perhaps they misrepresented it but I have no reason to believe that either.

Let me put my intended point in more specific terms by directly relating it to one agencies training standards. IANTD standards require that a skill evaluation be filled out for each and every training dive. Basic skills are borken down into several individual line items such as buoyancy control, finning technique, buddy awareness ect...that's not a direct quote but I'll dig up a copy to be more precise if you'd like. Come to think of it it's probably in the standards and procedures on their web site. The point is though that the student is scored in each catagory. In order to pass the course in the minimum allowable number of dives they must average a score of 8 out of 10. With 2 additional dives the can pass with I think an average of 6.

Now...read carefully...the skills I saw on that documentory which I have no way of determining the accuracy of...would not recieve a passing score. Plain and simple, based on agency standards I could not issue a recreational certification to those divers. No matter what else they are good at and no matter how great they are at it and no matter what else they did in their training...based on those skills I could not issue a certification without seeing significant improvement.

Now if that rubs some one wrong I really am sorry but it doesn't change it.

 

[Hank49]

Now if that rubs some one wrong I really am sorry but it doesn't change it.

Well put Mike. But I would be careful about telling that to 4 or 5 SEALS in a bar on Saturday night.

 

[captain]

The training shown on TV was called BUD/S (basic underwater demolition/seal) and is intented to weed out people who are not physically able, highly motivated or team players. They receive only very basic scuba training with two hose regulators to prepare them for rebreathers. The training subjects the students to extreme physical and mental stress. The last week of the training is called Hell Week where students are pushed through various exercises around the clock with only 2 or 3 hours sleep a day all the while cold and wet. The average drop out rate is about 90%. Those who graduate go on to advanced diver training at the underwater swimmers school. Most of us on this board could not afford the time and cost to get the training the military gives.

Captain

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was unable to copy and past from the IANTD S&P but here's a run down of the skill evaluation to be filled out for each student on each dive during all courses. Note this is the technique they display during the dive and is in addition to individual skills that must be demonstrated...grading for the tour portion of the dive if you will.

The first catagory is buyoancy control
At depth
During ascent
at safety stop


The next catagory is Propulsion technique which is devided into...
Finning technique and efficiency
Body position for low drag and silt avoidance
pulling technique where applicable

Since the divers I saw (supposedly after graduation) were flutter kicking hard all the time even when just maintaining position and in a severe head up/foot down trim, which is very inefficient, you can see how they would have recieved extremely low scores in these two catagories.

The next 2 catagories are Equipment and awareness. Both catagories are also broken down into several seperate line items and I would expect the divers I saw to score very well. That however would not be enough to earn them a certification. Especially on a deep dive (or at 30 ft? on an O2 rebreather) the extra work caused by the constant hard finning and headup attitude would be dangerous...admittedly made slightly less so by their very good phisical condition but bad news none the less.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well put Mike. But I would be careful about telling that to 4 or 5 SEALS in a bar on Saturday night.

LOL I'd be careful but I'd tell them if they asked.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The training shown on TV was called BUD/S (basic underwater demolition/seal) and is intented to weed out people who are not physically able, highly motivated or team players. They receive only very basic scuba training with two hose regulators to prepare them for rebreathers. The training subjects the students to extreme physical and mental stress. The last week of the training is called Hell Week where students are pushed through various exercises around the clock with only 2 or 3 hours sleep a day all the while cold and wet. The average drop out rate is about 90%. Those who graduate go on to advanced diver training at the underwater swimmers school. Most of us on this board could not afford the time and cost to get the training the military gives.

Captain

the last diving the documentory showed was supposed to be the graduates...and they were on rebreathers.

 

[captain]

http://www.seal.navy.mil/seal/tra_nswc.asp