Pushing out a little further beyond the Hill 400 Line

[LiteHedded]

Why?

Because you strike me as inexperienced. It feels like I have potentially done more body recoveries in ginnie than you have total dives in that section of cave. But maybe I’m wrong

 

[PfcAJ]

I started cave diving in 07 after 10 year of ow diving and done between 0 and 5 cave diving trips per year since then. For a while I lived a place where I could go caving after work. Why? Can you actually give a reason why he shouldn't bring a stage?

Cause it's their schtick to only ever post snarky one liners. There is not actual reasoning given or point adressed. Well, to be fair it's mostly AJ and lh to a much lesser degree.
Telling the guy (or anyone else for that matter) it's an easy dive and you don't need more gas, is really bad adivice IMHO. They are just saying that because in DIR diving solo isn't allowed.
They essentially told the guy not to go diving unless he finds a 'compentent' buddy and the dive is easy.
BTW: What's a legit cave divers and what's not a legit cave diver?


So what's wrong with using a stage for that dive?
In my experience, people dive solo when they don't have a compentent buddy for a certain dive they want to do and not because they so super keen on diving solo. Everbody I know that dives cave solo sometimes, generally prefers to have a good buddy.

Getting spooked once is not a red flag to me, it's normal. Admitting to it makes him seem not too overly confident, which is a good thing. Being extra careful and maybe bringing 'too much' gas is good thing too.

I've said it before, diving with a compentent buddy is the best option but it's not realistic to have that depending on where or when you dive.


That's odd. I don't get how you can have more drag in SM than in BM, with stages or without.

I never said it’s an easy dive or to take less gas.

I said that describing it as spooky and wanting to add more gas (different than take less gas) is indicative of not being ready for that dive. If you think you’re legit at risk of running out of gas and drowning then PERHAPS you should hold off on doing that dive. “I can get here with normal reserves but for some unknown reason I feel like I need more reserves” makes me (and others) raise an eyebrow.

The reasoning here was articulated earlier, but (as usual) you either don’t get it or can’t figure out that cave diving is more mental than anything else. That (as LH stated) reeks of inexperience.

Not having a buddy DOES reduce your resources. You cannot duplicate probably the weakest link of all of cave diving, and that’s your brain. It’s not about DIR or whatever. It’s about sound decision making and having someone back up your decision making to hopefully prevent you from becoming room temperature.


And I don’t buy the argument that oh boohoo I can’t find anyone to dive with. Maybe there’s a reason for that and you need to reflect on things.

In all your long winded posts, you barely get any meaning across at all. Maybe try some word reduction and make your writing count instead of just filling up space.

 

[berndo]

It feels like I have potentially done more body recoveries in ginnie than you have total dives in that section of cave.

That's some metric, dude.

“I can get here with normal reserves but for some unknown reason I feel like I need more reserves” makes me (and others) raise an eyebrow.

The OP was asking whether or not it's over the top to drop a safety. I said for more gas I'd bring a stage instead and explained why... that's all. Bringing a stage when you don't really need it is pretty common.
You apparently think it's a **** plan, I think it's reasonable. There is really not much point in going over this again.

Some of the stuff you bring up I've never even disputed.

 

[PfcAJ]

That's some metric, dude.


The OP was asking whether or not it's over the top to drop a safety. I said for more gas I'd bring a stage instead and explained why... that's all. Bringing a stage when you don't really need it is pretty common.
You apparently think it's a **** plan, I think it's reasonable. There is really not much point in going over this again.

Some of the stuff you bring up I've never even disputed.

Ugh. It’s the *why* behind it. You’re too superficial with it. That’s what we disagree about.

 

[berndo]

Ugh. It’s the *why* behind it. You’re too superficial with it. That’s what we disagree about.

I think you're just very much against solo cave diving in general.

 

[tomfcrist]

I think you're just very much against solo cave diving in general.

I’m not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse, but here is my thought.

1/3s were designed so that at max penetration, you have enough gas to get yourself and a buddy out of a cave. Mind you that only works well in a high flow cave such as Ginnie. If your buddy loses his/her entire gas supply, you can make it out.

If diving solo, you have enough to get out, and enough to deal with problems. If you lose a neck o ring, you isolate, and still have enough to get out. If sidemount, same story without needing to isolate. If you loose ALL gas, you are ******. Using a safety does little good if it gets dropped along the way…it’s gotta be attached if it’s going to do you any good.

The gas reserves are even greater if diving 1/4s (which I’m guessing you do).

I’m assuming Manatee is doing these dives on backgas without violating 1/3’s, 1/4’s…whatever. Thus even solo has a boatload more gas than he needs to do the dive. Adding a stage or safety bottle at that point is akin to taking a 6th dive computer because the first 5 might fail.

Now if he NEEDs a stage to get the distance he wants with his already established reserve capacity/rules…the answer is obvious to bring one. If the stage /safety bottle is a security blanket to override the fact that he’s uncomfortable in a particular section of cave, then he would need to rethink it. The stage isn’t making anything safer, it’s just a courage pill…much like booze…opening the door for bad decisions.
I don’t do super low silty stuff, because I don’t feel comfortable there…it becomes not fun for me. A stage or safety bottle isn’t going to change that.
I again applaud him for being able to recognize and acknowledge being uncomfortable…in an ego driven world/sport, that’s a rarity.

 

[Superlyte27]

I was talking about a solo dive. Are you really trying to say that more gas is a worse plan because it creates more drag? More drag will also cause you to hit return pressure faster... that's not less safe.
You guys talk about a competent buddy as if it was a piece of gear. I dove Ginnie, JB and other tourist caves in FL solo too on some dives because there was nobody else diving on a tuesday morning. OP might have a good reason to dive solo. Who knows.

I'm not going to tell any diver to take less gas if he thinks he might need it. If you think you'll feel better or safer with more gas, bring more gas.
In SM with one top mounted stage it doesn't create nearly as much drag as a dangling DIR style stage with a twin set does. It's not that much of a big.

As I said, if you can dive with a buddy, it's the better option, I'm not disputing that. If it's just a random buddy, it's not necessarily better than more gas though.

Some people just like to argue to show that they can. I’ve never once, before this thread, read anywhere where people said taking more gas was a bad idea. People are stupid. That is all. The sooner you realize that, the better off you’ll be. Took me a long time too.

 

[tomfcrist]

I’ve never once, before this thread, read anywhere where people said taking more gas was a bad idea

You haven’t seen it here either…all I’ve said is that it isn’t the answer to his problem.

 

[berndo]

@tomfcrist
I know you don't need a stage to see the rubber bats and I know where the rule of 3rds comes from.
I'm not going to tell any cave diver not to take a stage or extra gas if he wants to.
Manatee dude sounds pretty reasonable and careful to me. If you or someone else goes with him that's even better. I never disputed that having a good buddy is the best option.

 

[kensuf]

Can't believe I'm chiming in on this idiotic thread, but here we go...

If a persons comfort level on a particular dive is such that the hairs on the back of their neck are starting to stand up and their spidey sense is tingly, it's time to take three deep breaths and go home. It's that plain and simple.

I teach my cave students "It's better to listen to that voice in your head when it starts whispering than wait until that voice starts screaming." The reason why: when a person starts feeling nervous or anxious, any sort of problem that presents itself can potentially lead to the cascade of the panic cycle.

However, if the fit hits the shan, as the Queen (RIP) says, "keep calm and carry on" -- remember: there's only one true emergency (out of gas), everything else is simply a problem. If you've got a functioning regulator and air delivery system, you've got some time to solve the problem.

If bringing extra gas helps keep the spidey sense from tingling, bring extra gas. However, it may also be wise to build extra capacity (comfort) by using progressive penetration to extend that range in smaller increments rather than trying to push beyond your individual comfort level.