Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[dave4868]

OK, I've seen this mentioned several times now and I am finally going to ask the question. I was never taught to sip off my regulator, just to breath off of it in the event of a free flow. Is there a reason why one is better than the other? Is sipping as easy as it sounds, or is there a trick to it?

"Breathing" off a free-flowing regulator might lead some people to close their mouth around the mouthpiece and risk over-pressure injury to the lungs (barotrauma).

"Sipping" implies you'll have the regulator mouthpiece up to your lips, but not enclosed in your mouth. Much less likely to overpressurize your lungs.

Sipping is easy, but is worth practicing to get used to the feeling of "wet" breaths.

Dave C

 

[Divin'Papaw]

OK, I've seen this mentioned several times now and I am finally going to ask the question. I was never taught to sip off my regulator, just to breath off of it in the event of a free flow. Is there a reason why one is better than the other? Is sipping as easy as it sounds, or is there a trick to it?

You can't just breath off of a free flowing regulator as it is no longer a demand valve but is a constant flow. As the previous poster said, the regulator would be delivering much more air than you need and if you close your mouth around it you will be at serious risk of an overpressure injury. "Sipping" implies breathing from the escaping air but with only the lower side of your mouth around the reg with your head tilted sideways. You need to leave the upper part of the reg open so that the excess air can escape. Also, you should keep your tongue towards the front of your mouth to block the water that will invariable enter and allow you an air pocket to breath.

You really should have practiced this technique in OW class. If not, thats OK. Just make sure to practice it by simulating a free flow by pressing the purge button on your 2nd stage. Be sure you're shallow and with a buddy who can demonstrate the proper technique and can critique yours until you get it right.

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

You can't just breath off of a free flowing regulator as it is no longer a demand valve but is a constant flow. As the previous poster said, the regulator would be delivering much more air than you need and if you close your mouth around it you will be at serious risk of an overpressure injury. "Sipping" implies breathing from the escaping air but with only the lower side of your mouth around the reg with your head tilted sideways. You need to leave the upper part of the reg open so that the excess air can escape. Also, you should keep your tongue towards the front of your mouth to block the water that will invariable enter and allow you an air pocket to breath.

You really should have practiced this technique in OW class. If not, thats OK. Just make sure to practice it by simulating a free flow by pressing the purge button on your 2nd stage. Be sure you're shallow and with a buddy who can demonstrate the proper technique and can critique yours until you get it right.

OK, this is rather disconcerting. I was under the impression that simply resisting against breathing in was more than enough, which apparently is not the case. Oh, and to kill the upcoming PADI bashing, I've only received NAUI training. I also made it through two instructors and AOW without this information. My AOW instructor is about to get an email...

 

[MikeFerrara]

"Breathing" off a free-flowing regulator might lead some people to close their mouth around the mouthpiece and risk over-pressure injury to the lungs (barotrauma).

"Sipping" implies you'll have the regulator mouthpiece up to your lips, but not enclosed in your mouth. Much less likely to overpressurize your lungs.

Sipping is easy, but is worth practicing to get used to the feeling of "wet" breaths.

Dave C

Closing your mouth around the free flowing reg will not blow up your lings...the second stage has an exhaust port remember.

Sipping requires a hand to hold the reg and when you get busy, you might not have a hand to spare.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You can't just breath off of a free flowing regulator as it is no longer a demand valve but is a constant flow. As the previous poster said, the regulator would be delivering much more air than you need and if you close your mouth around it you will be at serious risk of an overpressure injury.

They really need to stop teaching this nonsense.

You will get a lot of air and it's cold and uncomfortable but it won't cause a lung overexpansion injury. Excess air will just make it's way out the exhaust port. You can also block the mouthpiece with your toungue to give your cold teeth a break.

Should you be lucky enough to have a free hand to hold the reg, sipping is fine for increased comfort or...you can even just open your mouth a bit.

What causes the lung over-expansion injury is when divers lose control of their buoyancy or just panic and bolt.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

What causes the lung over-expansion injury is when divers lose control of their buoyancy or just panic and bolt.

I realize that is the primary mechanism, but would breathing off of a fully free flowing 2nd stage fully inserted in the mouth not force more air than necessary into the lungs thus compounding the problem? Just asking as I've never tried. I realize that the exhaust ports are still functional, but that's assuming that the diver is able to somehow slow the flow of air enough so that the extra is forced out through the exhaust. Is that done using the tongue, airway control or does it just happen naturally as you exhale? Is this sipping method taught because of the discomfort of having a free flowing reg completely in your mouth?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I realize that is the primary mechanism, but would breathing off of a fully free flowing 2nd stage fully inserted in the mouth not force more air than necessary into the lungs thus compounding the problem? Just asking as I've never tried. I realize that the exhaust ports are still functional, but that's assuming that the diver is able to somehow slow the flow of air enough so that the extra is forced out through the exhaust. Is that done using the tongue, airway control or does it just happen naturally as you exhale?

Exhaling works just fine and blocking the mouthpiece with your toungue can help save the teeth. Try it, start by sipping and gradually put the reg further into your mouth. That way you can prove it to yourself without taking any big risks all at once

In fact, I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that if you have a leaky exhaust diaghram or a leaky reg housing you have the oposite problem. Tou get a mouth full of water. The way you breath from that reg is to use the purge...it won't blow your lungs up but it will purge the water out of the way.

Is this sipping method taught because of the discomfort of having a free flowing reg completely in your mouth?

I don't know the history regarding where this teaching method came from. I suspect it came about as a matter of comfort but I don't really know.

As I say, if you have a free hand and sipping is more comfortable, then sip but you don't have to and there might be times when your hands are just too busy with more important tasks.

Not all agencies teach free flow managment and, to my knowledge, none of those that do teach it, require it to be done in a diving situation.

It may be off topic but there are other skills that can get divers in trouble because they aren't taught in a diving context. Mask clearing, reg recovery and the list goes on.

 

[dave4868]

"Breathing" off a free-flowing regulator might lead some people to close their mouth around the mouthpiece and risk over-pressure injury to the lungs (barotrauma).

"Sipping" implies you'll have the regulator mouthpiece up to your lips, but not enclosed in your mouth. Much less likely to overpressurize your lungs.

Sipping is easy, but is worth practicing to get used to the feeling of "wet" breaths.

Closing your mouth around the free flowing reg will not blow up your lings...the second stage has an exhaust port remember.

Sipping requires a hand to hold the reg and when you get busy, you might not have a hand to spare.

Respectfully, Mike, it only takes a small amount of overpressure and overexpansion to damage the lungs.

Even though you're correct that the 2nd stage exhaust valve could vent some of that free-flowing air, overpressure (overexpansion) of the lungs would still be a major risk with one's mouth wrapped around the mouthpiece.

We could be talking about a significantly greater amount of air and pressure if it's due to a 1st stage failure, than a simple 2nd stage failure.

My guess is that both types of free-flows could overwhelm the exhaust valve's capacity.

Not that my 10-year-old PADI OW manual is the final word, but they state, on p. 155, (with my embolden), "You can breathe from a free-flowing regulator if you follow a couple of procedures. First, don't seal your mouth on the regulator because the continuous flow of high-pressure air may cause lung-expansion injury. Instead, hold the regulator in your hand and press the mouthpiece to the outside of your lips."

Mike, I value your opinions, but surely you know that the lungs can be damaged by relatively small amounts of overpressure.

Besides, a diver, with his mouth wrapped around the free-flowing mouthpiece, even if the overpressurizing from the flow-free didn't cause outright damage by itself, would increase his risk of barotrauma if he momentarily closed his airway during ascent. That's because he may be more likely to have pressurized, full lungs.

A momentary gulp closes his airway and, if he ascends another few feet, pop goes the alveoli! If he's sipping, it would be much less likely, since his lungs would probably not be full or pressurized.

As I think you know, in shallow water, even a 4-foot change in depth has been known to cause lung overexpansion injury when breath-holding on a full breath. That's not much of a pressure change.

The possibility of lung damage, from even small amounts of overpressure, is the precise reason why "sipping" from a free-flowing regulator is recommended, I believe.

Dave C

 

[Web Monkey]

Mod Post

A number of posts in this thread have strayed far, far, away from both the forum's purpose and SCUBABoard's Terms of Service.

I'll be cleaning up this thread this afternoon. If your posts vanish, it's because they violate the TOS or the rules of the forum.

Terry Carmen,

Moderator.
​

 

[wb416]

Tech diving in Gilboa is very popular and it has an area where you can dive deep and can get into serious trouble. I think there have been at least one or more deaths there every year.

<snip>

Lee

Just for clarification, Mike has owned the quarry for about 7 years. There have been numerous incidents, albeit in reducing frequency as Mike has been stricter about various requirements. If I recall the numbers correctly, fortunately there have only been 3 incidents resulting in four fatalities... in the 2nd, 4th, and 7th (this) year of Mike's ownership. Not as high as was suggested above.

Comments by emergency services have been that they have to come out much less than they used to before Mike bought the quarry.

I think there should be momentum from this that would encourage Mike to ask instructors to use the area past the tubes for AOW training, and subsequently for other OW divers to build experience in this area rather than plunging over the wall or doing a sneak dive:

• There is a hard bottom to work with, with a gentle slope.
• There is still lot's of light so that it doesn't seem as mentally oppressive to a newer diver.
• The instructor has a nice opportunity to evaluate the AOW student having to swim there and back. Using the 70ft platform at the deep end doesn't allow any swimming evaluation, but rather how well they can hold on to the upline.

Perhaps instructors here on SB that use Gilboa for AOW or deep OW dives should consider encouraging Mike to take steps to get instructors to use the area past the tubes. Maybe even sign a petition or something to that effect as a show of support. Mike takes allot of flack from some very rude instructors when he tries to make recommendations like this unilaterally.