Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[OWSI176288]

I keep reading “what about this piece of equipment, what about a spare air, etc....or....what about feathering the valve, etc. "

I think a lot of people are missiing the main point. This wasn’t or didn't start as an OOA situation, it appears to of started with a free flow or flows. The root cause of this accident might be the inability to deal with the inital free flow or flows.

Leason to be learned: follow the training you should of learned and practice it. As has been previously stated, an open water diver should be able to comfortably breath off of a free flowing regulator while maintaining buoyancy and trim, and make a slow ascent to the surface while maintaining buddy (or team) contact. If a diver can’t do this, then either they haven’t been adequately trained, or need to maintain this skill by practicing breathing off a free flowing regulator mid water. A good place to practice would be hovering in shallow water at the END of the 3 min. safety stop and not kneeling on the bottom or a training platform.

I won’t even go into the doubles verses pony bottle (including spare air) thing. But personally, I will not dive the deep end of Gilboa unless I have my double 104's. Having that much gas on my back, and the redundancy of manifolded cylinders with a seperate bungeed back up under my chin, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling even in 38 oF water.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Got a different question here: 3 diver teams always seem more challenging to work than buddy pairs. Anyone think this might have been part of the problem...?

Not at all if the teams are teams and not just three people diving together. If the latter was the case then this was not a team. It was a recipe for disaster in those conditions. A three person team where all are on the same page is much safer than a buddy pair. Again a three person TEAM! I occaisonally dive with a couple of divers who are DIR trained and when skills are pretty close, experience about equal, and the plan is followed it works very well. When leading two ow students on their tour dives then it becomes a different story. I'm essentially diving solo watching two other divers who may or may not be in synch. Then it's alot more stressful on a 30 ft dive than on a 100 ft in cold dark conditions with two others divers who know what they are doing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Would it be possible to regulate the pressure at the tank valve itself? Obviously, if you close the valve altogether, no air will "free flow". Could you shut the valve, do a controlled ascent and then crack it open when you need additional air?

As has been noted it's called feathering the valve. It's commonly taught in reference to using stage and decompression bottles. It's easy enough to do but you need to able tcomfortable reach and oporate the valve.

There are other techniques that unfortunately aren't usually taught outside of technical or entry level technical courses. A free flow is one condition but what about a damaged second stage diaphragm or a leaking housing? Now you get water rather than air. You can breath off a reg like this effectively by depressing the purge...which blows the water out and delivers air.

How many people here were taught to do a negative pressure check on their reg before diving? Everybody checks to see that they can breath from the reg on the surface. The problem is that a test like that doesn't tell you if you have a leaky housing. Now you get in the water and suck water.

Leave the tank valve off and suck on the reg. you shouldn't get anything. If you do, there is a leak someplace.

All these things are things that any diver should know before ever being turneds lose to dive on their own, IMO.

 

[pickens_46929]

I don't think so. You're just trying to get your point across and I appreciate it. NP!

Me too!

I keep learning new things...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I keep reading “what about this piece of equipment, what about a spare air, etc....or....what about feathering the valve, etc.

I think a lot of people are missiing the main point. This wasn’t or didn't start as an OOA situation, it appears to of started with a free flow or flows. The root cause of this accident might be the inability to deal with the inital free flow or flows.

Leason to be learned: follow the training you should of learned and practice it. As has been previously stated, an open water diver should be able to comfortably breath off of a free flowing regulator while maintaining buoyancy and trim, and make a slow ascent to the surface while maintaining buddy (or team) contact.” If a diver can’t do this, then either they haven’t been adequately trained, or need to maintain this skill by practicing breathing off a free flowing regulator mid water. A good place to practice would be hovering in shallow water at the END of the 3 min. safety stop and not kneeling on the bottom or a training platform.

Unfortunately not all agencies teach free flow managment. Those that do, usually teach it kneeling on the bottom. That's pretty easy but it's a whole other thing to do it midwater. I've actually found this a fairly difficult skill for students to get. Most shoot themselves to the surface a couple times before they get it. We didn't even get started on the fact that trim isn't taught at all unless you take a GUE course or go through cave training. Really, who the hell is going to sit on the bottom breathing a free flow! you need to get yourself to the surface in a controled manor while breathing. Wouldn't it make sense to have a student try it?

Since so few ever get the chance to learn it in training, they shoot themselves to the surface the first time it happens for real...just look at the accidents we've seen at Gilboa over the years.

Still agencies and instructors just don't get it. As Ted Nugent once said "wack em, pack em and stack em".

We've seen enough of this stuff that as far as I'm concerned it's nothing short of murder. There just aren't any excuses left to offer for this nonsense. We keep seeing the same thing over and over and over.

Doc, it huirts when I do that...well stop doing it.

 

[ppo2_diver]

Still agencies and instructors just don't get it.

Some of us actually do get it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some of us actually do get it.

Of course some do and I think we should spend some time talking about them one of these daysw. It would be in a divers best interest to know who they are.

 

[Pegger]

Unfortunately not all agencies teach free flow managment. Those that do, usually teach it kneeling on the bottom. That's pretty easy but it's a whole other thing to do it midwater. I've actually found this a fairly difficult skill for students to get. Most shoot themselves to the surface a couple times before they get it. We didn't even get started on the fact that trim isn't taught at all unless you take a GUE course or go through cave training. Really, who the hell is going to sit on the bottom breathing a free flow! you need to get yourself to the surface in a controled manor while breathing. Wouldn't it make sense to have a student try it?

Since so few ever get the chance to learn it in training, they shoot themselves to the surface the first time it happens for real...just look at the accidents we've seen at Gilboa over the years.

Still agencies and instructors just don't get it. As Ted Nugent once said "wack em, pack em and stack em".

We've seen enough of this stuff that as far as I'm concerned it's nothing short of murder. There just aren't any excuses left to offer for this nonsense. We keep seeing the same thing over and over and over.

Doc, it huirts when I do that...well stop doing it.

It's been almost twenty years since I've taken my OW cert. and I don't remember being taught how to breath off a free flowing reg. ever.
So how would you practice, or get a first or second stage to free flow?

Regards,
Steve

 

[IneedaName]

So how would you practice, or get a first or second stage to free flow?

Regards,
Steve

Just push the purge button

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

OK, I've seen this mentioned several times now and I am finally going to ask the question. I was never taught to sip off my regulator, just to breath off of it in the event of a free flow. Is there a reason why one is better than the other? Is sipping as easy as it sounds, or is there a trick to it?