prism topaz

[padiscubapro]

Sure.
1. CE protocol does not have to be met entirely for certification.
2. It doesn't include requirements and testing I believe to be relevant.

CE testing is a funny thing.. The set specific minimums a product must meet, some performance standands only need be met if equipped.

for example a PO2 monitor is not necessary for a RB to pass CE BUT if it is equipped with any sort of monitoring it has specific performance requirements. Basically for any monitor to meet these requirements consistently the unit would need some type of digial guage that shows po2 to 2 decimal places (theoretically a perfect monitor thats perfectly calibrated could do it to 1 decimal place).. This means Leds as a primary or an analog guage wiould't cut it.. Do we really need monitoring to 2 dec places no, but what this requirement does is enforce repeatability for everyone.. All people who can read, if presented with the same numbers will give you the same answer, no matter how accurate an analog needle is, due to paralax and eyesight, 10 peope will most likely give 10 different answers.. not that the difference is significant.

another ce requirement is that the RB must have onboard bailout capabilities, these regs must pass the same CE tests as if they were being use by OC divers. What does this mean?? Well an RB can get away with a bare minimum reg when it comes to flow capabilities, but since has to be used for bailout its performance will limit the depth at which a rig could be rated.. Even if the RIg was 100m capable, if the bailout reg was unusable at that depth, the RB cant be certified for that depth. (forget that the diver is going to have to carry offboard bailout)

The ce ratings are a combination of both performance and to insure consistent build quality. The current RB ratings are very tough and had input from several sources.. Currently there are only 2 CCRs that have passed the CE protocol, as soon as the ourbouros is completed, that will be the third. From what I have heard a fourth is also near (just needs breathing system tests) Its all a matter of money, understanding what is necessary to meet the guidlines, and being open to modifications that might not fit the designers personal feeling what is best.

The Navy's protocol is just as valid, its meant for their needs not necessarily the needs of the public, regardless of how valid or not the navy protocol is, the US is part of NATO and all equipment must now pass CE to be legally used in operations (I believe pre-existing gear is exempt).. So sooner or later the NAVY is going to have to adopt the CE at least as a minimum, then add specific limits of their own..

I have no doubts once the prism is submitted and they add their computer based display, the unit will pass. If it needs specific changes I'm sure they would be done. Europe is a big market..

The EU is in a transition period now, lots of regs are being added, not all are being enforced as of yet.. Next year some big changes go into effect.. The most shocking is the regs on helium based diving (technically its already law, but must be adhered to next year)... The only people who will legally be able to train "trimix" divers is HSE certified trainers, it will also be illegal for anyone to pump trimix to anyone who doent have an HSE certification..

 

[fins wake]

so to me--
CE means-- my unit is a quality build.
navy= the units is truly tested on RB dive functionality and safty.
Is this a correct assessment?

Not really. The CE assesment is certainly there to to test RB dive functionality and safety, and I'd venture that the U.S. Navy is interested in quality builds as well ...

Also, there are plenty of somewhat "flimsy" builds that have passed CE testing. (No names, but I'm not thinking of the Turtle or of the Drägers. There are quite a few CE-certified RB's around nowadays, mostly SCR's. Actually taking the RB's apart, or even better, diving them, will give you an idea.)

The U.S. Navy and CE are just two different protocols with different emphasis on what's important, that's all. What you decide is most important to you is a matter of personal opinion. In a world where most rebreather designs are built to no generic protocol at all, any independent testing is a unique selling point. The Classic KISS is sold to no independent protocol, but it's still a quality rig. (The SportKISS will be submitted for CE certification, however.)

Stefan always makes an excellent case for the Prism, and I agree that if battery placement, in particular, is an issue to you (as it is to him, to many others and to the U.S. Navy), then the Navy protocol is superior to the CE protocol used by DERA (as QinetiQ were at the time). (I also like the independent ppO2 gauge, but that's a different story).

The CE classification is stringent on other issues. APD have put effort into making sure their rig passes the EN250 breathing requirements, for example. APD are very, very clear on issues such as depth and scrubber rating. Again, the Prism might very well fly through these trials as well. Until it's actually been tested, we don't know. (But note that the U.S. Navy has similar, stringent tests.)

So it's really a question of what you prefer if you're a U.S. or non-European buyer. Mind you, the Inspiration is dived more than any other rebreather, also in the U.S. That too, in large numbers, is a sort of third-party testing and it is this more than anything else which backs up Rob's statement that the Inspiration has been tested more than any other civilian rebreather.

If you're resident in Europe, it's a different matter, because you cannot commercially sell or even re-sell (!) a rebreather in Europe if it hasn't passed the CE certification. (Same as for e.g. recreational vessels.)

 

[JonnyB]

Padiscubapro - I think you are very wrong about HSE statement, i am not sure i will have to find out, but HSE is Healt and Security Council and its UK based, they have no permission over the boarders. HSE cannot go to Germany, Sweden or any other EU country and enforce what you are Saying.
Fins_wake - I know that you can re-sell any no CE eqiupment in the EU. I can sell you my KISS secondhand without any problems.

/Jonny - Stockholm

 

[fins wake]

HSE cannot go to Germany, Sweden or any other EU country and enforce what you are Saying.

Correct. In addition, the U.S. Navy will not have to subject its equipment for CE certification as military and law enforcement equipment is specifically exempted through Annex I of the PPE Directive (see below).

Fins_wake - I know that you can re-sell any no CE eqiupment in the EU.

With all respect, Jonny, legally you can't. You would be breaking the EU Personal Protective Equipment Directive (PPE: diving equipment is specifically covered in Articles 8 and 11) as well as, I believe, EN1413. This has been transposited into national law in Sweden as elsewhere in the EU.

You are allowed, however, to buy your rebreather from outside the EU and import it for your own personal use. So for anybody reading this in Europe, don't be afraid to order your Classic KISS straight from Gordon (or your Prism straight from Shas & Peter). That is perfectly legal. But you cannot then resell the kit legally within the EU:
http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31989L0686&model=guichett

I can sell you my KISS secondhand without any problems.

You'd be very welcome to!

Seriously, we don't have an EU Dive Polizei* checking our gear at the dive sites over here, and I don't think we'll ever have one, so I'd be very happy to bend & break the rules for my own part in this particular case. But strictly speaking, it's not legal, that's all. I suppose if we wanted to keep it legal, we could always travel outside the EU and you could sell me the kit off-borders.

*Originally written as the well-known short form for the WWII Geheime Staatspolizei, but that was actually censored by Scubaboard! :11:

 

[caveseeker7]

In addition, the U.S. Navy will not have to subject its equipment for CE certification as military and law enforcement equipment is specifically exempted through Annex I of the PPE Directive (see below).

Somehow I couldn't imagine combat swimmers with brightly colored LAR IX and EOD divers with buzzers on their rigs.

What would be next? Airbags in battle tanks and CE'd carriers?

In regards to testing issues:
I had conversations with both Kevin and Gordon at DEMA about that.
Gordon said pretty much the same thing that Joe said, if you have a controller it has to pass accuracy. The SportKiss doesn't so it won't need to. It doesn't have electronics so it won't need electronic based alarms.

SMI might be able to make a like claim, the secondary isn't digital, so it shouldn't have a digital readout. There is no battery, so it shouldn't require one. We'll see when they get around to it.

Also, some CE requirements may be skipped with the proper disclaimers. according to Kevin. Am not sure how accurate that is, but any back C-L will have a hard time passing hydrostatic changes, and he was in the midst of testing so he ought to know. Dolphin and Azi passed somehow.

The NAVY, by the way, does test materials and assembly for quality and safety. They don't want scrubber, hoses and tanks to fall off their breathers any more than we do.

 

[padiscubapro]

Padiscubapro - I think you are very wrong about HSE statement, i am not sure i will have to find out, but HSE is Healt and Security Council and its UK based, they have no permission over the boarders. HSE cannot go to Germany, Sweden or any other EU country and enforce what you are Saying.
Fins_wake - I know that you can re-sell any no CE eqiupment in the EU. I can sell you my KISS secondhand without any problems.

/Jonny - Stockholm

I agree they have no authority per se but the way the EU regulations are written it basically limits helium based gases strictly to commercial divers, and the regulations that most follow are that of the HSE.

I can see If I can find the regs.. I have them somewhere.. I am sure about the limitiations because one of ANDI's ITs has been in discussions with the authorities on how to try and change these regs to make allowances.
He personally will still be able to train since he is a commercial diver trainer, but it doesn;t help the rest of us.

 

[caveseeker7]

He personally will still be able to train since he is a commercial diver trainer, but it doesn;t help the rest of us.

Screw CE, we should just grant political asylum to people who want to enjoy freedom of diving. At least we'd be getting some people worth having.

 

[padiscubapro]

Dolphin and Azi passed somehow.

The dolphin was around well before there was a CE standard.. even so the initial standards weern't that difficult..

The azi was before the more stringent standards, as for testing the entire rig, I don't know if that was ever done.. The CE number that I have seen published for the AZI was for a gas dosing system (at least thats what it referrred to when I checked).

The accuracy thing I stated earlier.. The ce standards read something like the po2 of the gas must be displayed accurate to +/- 0.05 bar

 

[caveseeker7]

The dolphin was around well before there was a CE standard..
The azi was before the more stringent standards ...

The Prism has been around for a while, too, in some form or another since the mid- if not early nineties.

The ce standards read something like the po2 of the gas must be displayed accurate to +/- 0.05 bar

If it can be measured with a voltmeter it's displayed. Doesn't mean you can read it.
Increments on the secondary are 0.1 bar, with space in between.
You ought to be able to see that. At the worst a new scale with 0.5 bar markings.

 

[padiscubapro]

The Prism has been around for a while, too, in some form or another since the mid- if not early nineties..

yeah but I don't think they would want to sell units in that form..

The drager probably only had to self certify that it met specific requirements of performance.. Manufacturers can self certify for certain requirements..

If you remember another manufacturer had to retest (and meet the new standards) when they decided to sell units with a factory ADV.