Pre-1989 AL tank exchange program

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Hi, there has been quite a few problems with aluminum tanks. We have tanks that are pre 89 fail all the time. The scary thing about it is we eddy the tanks prior to sending them out to hydro and then re eddy when they come back. Most of the tanks that fail are after the hydro, aka after they have been pressurized to the hydro required pressure. As a shop owner this is scary. We have all seen less than attentive shop employees overfill a tank because they got sidetracked. What happens when that tank is sitting in your garage or the shop fill station and decides to let go. If anyone is close that will probably be deceased. As for us at the shop, we are not going to let this happen at our shop. This is not a sale gimmick it is about safety. I know that neither my employees or I would ever want to see someone get hurt because of an inexpensive scuba cylinder.

Sorry for getting of the question just wanted to let you know our opinion.
The major problem aluminum alloy is 6351.

See ya John
www.northeastscubasupply.com
 
divemaster_jim:
O.K. I'm still curious, Has there been a run of bad tanks recently? Not passing hydro or vis?
Of course not. But this is yet another nail in the coffin for the “self-regulating” SCUBA industry. I’ve said this before and I’ll continue to say it until (hopefully) someone in the SCUBA industry wakes up and solves the problem before it goes too far (probably too late already, but I can always hope).

Sustained load cracking (SLC) is a known problem. It takes years for a crack to become dangerous(1), which means that multiple visuals have to be poorly done not to catch a developing crack. The fact that cylinders are failing from SLC indicates a systemic problem in the SCUBA industry(1). Any shop that refuses to fill 6351 cylinders is admitting to the fact that this is a systemic problem – they’re worried (rightfully so) that XYZ shop down the street has some tank monkey inspecting cylinders that doesn’t know what he’s doing and is therefore passing cylinders that should be retired from service due to SLC.

What the “self regulating” SCUBA industry is not doing is self-regulating! Instead of going after XYZ shop for not performing their job according to standards, they shift the burden back onto the customer for the industry's own failures and make the customer pay in the form of having to buy new cylinders! Excuse me, not buy – they’re being “exchanged” for a “nominal fee”.

The first nail has been hammered home. Due to the SCUBA industry’s failure to “self regulate” the DOT has just recently added the requirement that an eddy test be performed by a regulated entity – a licensed hydrostatic facility – when an AL cylinder is hydro tested. If things continue as they have throughout this 6351 debacle, it’s just a matter of time before inspections are taken completely out of the shop’s hands and we’ll have to go to a licensed facility every year (with its corresponding high costs) to get our cylinders inspected. We, the customer, lose in this case as well.

All because the “self regulating” SCUBA industry is too scared to “self regulate”. They should be actively and aggressively be going after the sloppy shops, but they’re just too scared to do so, so they pussyfoot around the problem and pass their failures onto you, the customer, and make you buy new cylinders. Excuse me again – I can’t seem to get this one right – it’s “exchange” your cylinder for a “nominal fee”.

How big is this problem? It’s tiny. In fact, “tiny” doesn’t even begin to describe how absolutely minuscule the problem is. In the last 20 years there have been 17 6351 failures worldwide(1) over 25.4 million cylinders(1). If you assume a conservative 100 fills average for each cylinder, this puts the probability of a failure about par with winning the power ball lottery. In other words the shop owners should be more worried about their employees driving home (about a 0.1% chance of being injured) rather than cylinders failing from SLC (0.0000007% chance). But even those failures would not have happened if the cylinders had been properly inspected.

But they’re not being properly inspected. And instead of your LDS stepping up to the plate and solving their problem, they’re passing the cost of their failures on to you, the customer. Such is the state of the SCUBA industry today. Bury your head in the sand, don’t self regulate and shaft the customer instead.

To quote a document to be found on the PSI page(1):

“Can SLC related ruptures be stopped? Yes they can.
The solution is a team effort by knowledgeable technicians
and owners who handle, inspect and use the cylinders.”

Note it does not say, “Don’t fill 6351 cylinders and make the customer buy new cylinders.” It says you gotta get rid of the tank monkeys in the SCUBA industry and have trained inspectors doing the work. Self regulating SCUBA industry – you gonna step up to the plate and go after the “bad” shops or continue to shaft your customer to all our detriment?

The choice is yours. But I’m not holding my breath.

Roger

(1) From the same source that John pointed you to, the PSI page:
http://www.psicylinders.com/library/Current/cracking.htm
 
Just looked and you still charge 119.00 for the Al 80, doesnt seme that much of a replacement plan, I get that with coupons elsewhere.
 
John:
So you are saying we are being dishonest because we are trying to get some of the old dangerous tanks off the market. This is something we believe in. No one else is offering it. This is not a sale gimmick it is about safety.
My issue is your calling 92% of your retail price a "nominal fee". That specifically is what I'm calling borderline dishonest. Has nothing to do with safety or dangerous tanks, but you misleading a customer into thinking he's paying a small "fee" rather than almost paying full retail for something.

A "nominal fee" is something on the order of 10% of retail. 92% of retail is a purchase, period.

Roak
 
Guys,

I don't think that John or NorthEast Scuba is the 'bad guy' here.

Many shops aren't filling 6351 alloy tanks anymore. While we might not agree with it, I can see the shops point of view that they can't control if the visual is done correctly and don't want the risk and liability involved.

I think the issue here is really that his "tank replacement" isn't a huge discount. he's pretty much selling them at or near cost (with his shipping cost included I'm sure. ) Well tanks are going up in price, so expect pay more for them in the future regardless of where you get them.. If you can get a tank elsewhere for cheaper, then that's prob the best option.

The real problem here is what roakey pointed out. that the average "tank monkey" doing airfills & inspections is not doing the proper inspection or is properly trained. But I doubt that we will solve that problem here....


So... Just though I don't know John, I don't see a reason to "take this out on him". If tanks are cheaper somewhere else... then you already know you've got other options.

-Mike
 
I give up!!!

We are just trying to help. This will be my last reply. I would think that offering a tank at my cost would be helpful this was not meant as a ploy. I agree that there are few professional scuba shops out there. But if you think that I am going to risk one of my employees for a lousy $4.00 fill I am sorry it is not worth it. Cost on an aluminum 80 is anywhere from $114.99 to $119.99 to get free freight you need to buy 15 to 25 cylinders. Now what do you think I am getting rich doing this? I have to hold the stock, take the credit card fees, and maybe make $10.00 scraping the cylinder minus my gas driving the tank to the scrap yard. This was a sincere gesture that is all.

See ya John
www.northeastscubasupply.com
 
I agree with John....What exactly do you think we pay for tanks?? He was doing this and not making any money....the nominal fee is like $5 if best that he "may" make on the tank "IF" he gets free shipping, then he still hast to get rid of old tank, etc......So granted his normal price and his "nominal fee" price may be close, but hes still not making any money on the sale of these.
 
Dive Right In Scuba:
I agree with John....What exactly do you think we pay for tanks?? He was doing this and not making any money....the nominal fee is like $5 if best that he "may" make on the tank "IF" he gets free shipping, then he still hast to get rid of old tank, etc......So granted his normal price and his "nominal fee" price may be close, but hes still not making any money on the sale of these.
I'll try this again. My complaint is extremely specific. "Nominal fee" does not jibe with 92% of retail. That's it.

If he had said "We'll give you 8% off a new cylinder if you trade in your old pre-1989 cylinder" I would have had no problem with the phrasing at all.

Roak

Ps. Perhaps I confused the issue when I poked fun at his phrasing in my complaint about the systemic problem in the industry. But when it comes to NESS specifically, I only have an issue with the term "nominal fee".
 
I guess if he had used something other than "nominal" would probably have been better, I know there is no profit margin selling tanks, What really peaked my interest was the pre '89 in the ad. While I've not yet had any dealings with John everything that I have heard is that he's a good guy.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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