pony bottles

[rjack321]

MikeF, I haven't read every post, but I've been following this thread off and on. Keep up the good work!

Re: diving beyond ones capabilities via a pony.
Below is one of the best cases in my recent memory of where inexperience, a poorly rigged pony, and poor judgement (partially a bad gas choice and narcosis) collided. And he lived to tell us about it so we can learn from these kind of mistakes. And I think he's alot wiser now.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=799668&postcount=1

Avoid the school of hard knocks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The original poster is right to think the pony will help with such problems as he encountered. He's not avoiding solving the other issues that experience, in time, will whittle down to size. It's very unlikely that he would increase his risk by using a pony. Quite the opposite.

]

The original poster, posted this...

have purchaces a sausage, strobe light and whistle for second stage, anyones thoughts on a pony bottle as well I feel its more a comfort thing but being a newbe would appeciate any thoughts on this.

He hasn't stated that he has had any problems at all.

 

[grazie42]

I think some are confusing the OP with this poster:

Originally posted by Ice9
The DM and I are diving a wreck in the DomRep. I reach my turn-around pressure, and tell him its time to go. He disagrees, signaling to me that he has plenty of air, and if need be, we can share. All is cool, right? No. I can't tell you why I somehow came to the conclusion that this was OK, but I did. (Please don't flame me, I understand that this is in the top 5 bad decisions I've made in my life).

So, we keep going, and of course he is all over the wreck, taking pictures with his camera. As I struggle to keep up with him, my computer goes *bleep bleep* and it wasn't long after that when I sucked ye olde tank dry (at this point it was no surprise).

Lucky, I was able to keep up with him and he did in fact have plenty of air for the both of us, and we made a normal ascent w/ safety stop. But, what if he didn't? What if something else were to happen that could complicate things? What the hell was I thinking?

Needless to say, this is a life lesson that I'll never forget - and serves to underscore with me the need to always consider safety. On the dives since then, I enforce a strict turn-around time.

Now I don't want folks to get the wrong idea here. It seems that people are getting this idea that I'm *groping desperately* for a pony bottle. I'm not. But, after a nice run at the online poker tables, I've decided that getting a pony would probably not be a bad idea, and I'm planning on buying one. I just can't see the down-side of carrying a bailout-bottle (provided I practice with it a lot). Perhaps I need something bigger, and I'll have to consider this. Much consideration will be made before I plunk down the ton of cash its probably going to cost, believe me...

To answer another's question, I probably had no business being that deep down there in the first place, considering my lack of experience. I need to acquire a LOT more experience, which is what this coming summer will be all about.

TBH, I don´t think it matters that he´s not the OP, his post still adds something to the thread...

 

[scubalifer]

I'm primarily a solo shore diver, to depths of 60 to 100' and I use a 120 cf main tank and 30 cf pony on every dive. I like long dives. If I've got a buddy, I still use the same rig. It provides options and flexibility with minimal added risk or trouble. IMHO.

Dave C[/QUOTE]

You also have between five hundred and a thousand dives. I dont think that pony bottle use is covered to any real extent in basic open water. Oh, heck why not just shove a three cf. spare air in your pocket and you will be fine. I dont have a thousand dives but about a couple hundred. I have started diving doubles and changed my whole configuration. It takes me back to feelings I had when it was all new. When I was a bit nervous. I forget what it was like. But I have been involved with rescuing some folks from drowning. That will ruin your day.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I really can't understand how some people make the claim that a pony bottle is too complex for a new diver. Some people learn to dive with dry suits, in dirty, cold water with waves and even currents! Learning to use a pony bottle is extremely simple. As long as you fill it with the right gas (usually just air), don't confuse it with the primary and dive like you ain't got one, there is a minimal potential for problems.

As I recall, when BC power inflators first came out, some people felt that they were supposed to be reserved for only "experienced" divers; beginning divers were only supposed to orally inflate their BC's, because the added complexity of an inflator was too dangerous for a new diver.

 

[dave4868]

I think some are confusing the OP with this poster:


TBH, I don´t think it matters that he´s not the OP, his post still adds something to the thread...

Oops, that was me that confused the original poster with the latter. Thanks for clarifying.

Now, where'd I put my "ginkgo biloba"?

I'm primarily a solo shore diver, to depths of 60 to 100' and I use a 120 cf main tank and 30 cf pony on every dive. I like long dives. If I've got a buddy, I still use the same rig. It provides options and flexibility with minimal added risk or trouble. IMHO.

Dave C

scubalifer wrote:

You also have between five hundred and a thousand dives. I dont think that pony bottle use is covered to any real extent in basic open water. Oh, heck why not just shove a three cf. spare air in your pocket and you will be fine. I dont have a thousand dives but about a couple hundred. I have started diving doubles and changed my whole configuration. It takes me back to feelings I had when it was all new. When I was a bit nervous. I forget what it was like. But I have been involved with rescuing some folks from drowning. That will ruin your day.

[/QUOTE]

I can see your point which I believe is about my possibly giving the wrong impression to someone who may follow it blindly and get hurt.

Rather than constantly provide "caveat emptor" warnings, I give an opinion with the expectation that someone will weigh it's merit in the context of a discussion and not take it as an exerpt from a manual, which it certainly isn't.

I know I just got here, but judging from the dozens of posters I've seen so far, including the newer divers, they're a pretty savvy, sensible group who can evaluate remarks in context. However, I'll try to be careful not to mislead. Thanks for the feedback.

Dave C

 

[MikeFerrara]

I really can't understand how some people make the claim that a pony bottle is too complex for a new diver. Some people learn to dive with dry suits, in dirty, cold water with waves and even currents! Learning to use a pony bottle is extremely simple. As long as you fill it with the right gas (usually just air), don't confuse it with the primary and dive like you ain't got one, there is a minimal potential for problems.

I can't speak for anyone else but complexity isn't my concern at all. Just in this thread alone or read the link provided a few posts back you should be able to see what my concerns are. They relate to the dives, the problems that the divers are having and their conclusion that a pony bottle is the solution to those problems. I don't know if any one is getting this. It isn't the pony, it's the dives, all the equipment, the techniques and the skills as a package. The addition of a pony just doesn't square it all away.

All else being equal, I don't think that carrying a pony bottle is going to cause any problem at all. It's just that in many of these cases it won't solve any either. Thinking you have a solution strapped to your back when you don't might just be a problem.

I will disagree with you on one point though. I don't really think that you should dive like you don't have it...I know what you mean...but if you have it, you need to be monitoring the pressure and keeping an eye on the thing otherwise. As far as I'm concerned, the divers who carry one on their back, can't see it, can't reach the valve and don't have an SPG on it, would be better off putting a rabits foot in their pocket.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MikeF, I haven't read every post, but I've been following this thread off and on. Keep up the good work!

Re: diving beyond ones capabilities via a pony.
Below is one of the best cases in my recent memory of where inexperience, a poorly rigged pony, and poor judgement (partially a bad gas choice and narcosis) collided. And he lived to tell us about it so we can learn from these kind of mistakes. And I think he's alot wiser now.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=799668&postcount=1

Avoid the school of hard knocks.

I wish everyone would read this link. I don't mean to pick on Don but it's just such a great example. BTW, I dived this same wreck when I was a fairly new diver and after seeing the rest of the group come scurying back to the line OOA, I went out shopping for pony bottles.

 

[Nemrod]

MikeF, you say the "concept is flawed"--that is a 100% condemnation of the use of a pony. It is not qualified. I am not --again---trying to poke fun or bash--but your reverse logic and that of several other posts makes no sense. Again, read the thread and you will see where I believe you said that the use of a pony indicated that a diver was working beyond their abilities.

How so are pony users diving beyond their skills?
How is the use of a pony flawed?
Exactly how does having 20 to 30 cf of fully redundant air supply NOT provide an extra level of safety, redundancy?

Saying it is so does not make it so, it just does not make sense when such statements are made over and over without any sound reasoning behind them.

Admit it, this is a DIR, doubles always, BP/wing forum and anything that departs from that is obviously going to get the diver killed---nah-- you guys go overboard in your exterme positions. Most people are not DIR and most people do not need the weight and complexity and drag and expense and impracticality of a doubles system that does not actually solve anything a pony cannot solve for non deco, non overhead sport diving.

The link in the post above by MikeF could have just as easily happened with a doubles diver. It has nothing to do with the use of pony bottles. The person in that link seems very inexperienced, if he had been on an isolation manifold his poorely maintained regulator could have failed requiring him to use the isolation valve. Not knowing how to do something or making poor choices does not mean the sytem is flawed, it just means the diver is flawed. He did not use the Rule of Thirds, his main supply was to small for the intended dive which put him into his EMERGENCY only supply--because--he did not plan his dive and stick to his plan and HE DID NOT ALLOW enough main gas. He could have gone to a larger single/with pony or small doubles (with or without pony) to provide the need air if the dive had ACTUALLY BEEN PLANNED to the actual required profile. This entire dive is a study in how to make mistakes and then compound them. Why two computers, how many computers you guys need?

Let me say this, pony bottles are not inteneded to allow a diver to stretch his dive into deco teriritory. Deco is the same thing as overhead, overhead diving requires additional levels of redundancy and planning.

N

 

[hlsooner]