hisoonerMike, I just want to add that I think highly of you and your very smart and wise, I just don't agree with you(all) most of the time, don't take it personal. N
pony bottles
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hisoonerMike, I just want to add that I think highly of you and your very smart and wise, I just don't agree with you(all) most of the time, don't take it personal. N
Sorry I had to shorten this up so I skipped some of the first questions you asked because I think the discussion below covers most of them.
I couldn't admit any such thing since I'm not DIR. I also don't do all my diving in doubles. I dive a single tank pretty often. I use doubles when I want the redundancy due to depth, overhead or other conditions. I even sidemount a little but don't tell my DIR buddies. But, yes, on the 120 ft wreck dives, I prefer the doubles and I prefer not to try to squeeze the dive into no-stop limits at all. The reason is simple, when I do a dive that way, I am no where near any limit...gas, time ect. Not close to limits means no time pressure even if there is a problem...I have a real comfortable margin.
Really? You think my doubles (or one side of them) can just drain down without me knowing?
Part of the flaw of that system is the features that allowed the backup tank to drain down without the diver knowing. Another flaw is his assumption that the reserve supply would be there when he needed it. It wasn't. Even if maintenance would have prevented the leak, it can't prevent all of them and it isn't the answer. The diver needs a triger to tell him there is a leak during the dive.
EXACTLY! The pony bottle didn't solve any of the problems did it? A larger single? When I dived that wreck, every one on the boat was diving 80's. Most just about drained them and one diver did. Just where exactly would Don (or these other divers)have learned anything about the rule of thirds and when to use it? You look in the standards for the line up of recreational courses and tell me when it's introduced. Nope, divers do it, they aren't confortable and they go buy a pony bottle. Of course, after they have the pony bottle, they still don't know about the rest of the things you mentioned.
Nemrod:
I couldn't admit any such thing since I'm not DIR. I also don't do all my diving in doubles. I dive a single tank pretty often. I use doubles when I want the redundancy due to depth, overhead or other conditions. I even sidemount a little but don't tell my DIR buddies. But, yes, on the 120 ft wreck dives, I prefer the doubles and I prefer not to try to squeeze the dive into no-stop limits at all. The reason is simple, when I do a dive that way, I am no where near any limit...gas, time ect. Not close to limits means no time pressure even if there is a problem...I have a real comfortable margin.
Really? You think my doubles (or one side of them) can just drain down without me knowing?
Part of the flaw of that system is the features that allowed the backup tank to drain down without the diver knowing. Another flaw is his assumption that the reserve supply would be there when he needed it. It wasn't. Even if maintenance would have prevented the leak, it can't prevent all of them and it isn't the answer. The diver needs a triger to tell him there is a leak during the dive.
EXACTLY! The pony bottle didn't solve any of the problems did it? A larger single? When I dived that wreck, every one on the boat was diving 80's. Most just about drained them and one diver did. Just where exactly would Don (or these other divers)have learned anything about the rule of thirds and when to use it? You look in the standards for the line up of recreational courses and tell me when it's introduced. Nope, divers do it, they aren't confortable and they go buy a pony bottle. Of course, after they have the pony bottle, they still don't know about the rest of the things you mentioned.
Nemrod:
Mike, I just want to add that I think highly of you and your very smart and wise, I just don't agree with you(all) most of the time, don't take it personal. N
Don't be silly...of course it's not personal. If we all thought exactly the same there wouldn't be much to talk about.
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MikeFerrara:
Not to pick on Don either, that was like some kind of perverted joke. One diver runs out of air twice, then sucks the other diver's air so now the donor will probably run out of air.
All this unplanned deco with no gas to handle it scares the crap out of me.
It's also why I never surface with less than a 1/3 of a tank (even though I take a lot of abuse for it) You never know who's going to stop by and need some.
Terry
RE: gear solutions
I would be thrilled to hear more of the 25-100 dive divers saying...
"I'm getting a HP130 because I am coming back with too little gas. I want to be back on the boat with a better reserve, like 40cf or so."
vs.
"I'm getting a pony cause I ran my AL80 down to 300psi once, and you never know when it might not be there for me."
Granted more gas can mean digging yourself a deeper hole. But a real contingency supply and a gas plan is a start IMHO.
dumpsterDiver
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Don made stupid errors on the dive. However, if I'm going to do something "stupid" with my pony, What I do is switch to the pony early (which is back mounted and has no SPG that I can read underwater) while I still have enough air to ascend in my primary tank. I can extend my dive and breath off the pony until it is empty and then go back to the primary and do a (redundant free) ascent.
I try to avoid doing stupid things like this, but if you are gonna push the limits and use the pony to extend the dive, then you really need to save the primary as the back-up, you don't want to rely too much on a pony that could be empty. When a 13 cu-ft pony approaches empty it happens fast.
I try to avoid doing stupid things like this, but if you are gonna push the limits and use the pony to extend the dive, then you really need to save the primary as the back-up, you don't want to rely too much on a pony that could be empty. When a 13 cu-ft pony approaches empty it happens fast.
Nemrod asked:
How so are pony users diving beyond their skills?
How is the use of a pony flawed?
Exactly how does having 20 to 30 cf of fully redundant air supply NOT provide an extra level of safety, redundancy?
How so are pony users diving beyond their skills?
It isn't a given that pony divers are diving beyond their skills. Indeed, some very skilled divers choose to use them, at least in some very specific situations. As previously discussed, however, it seems that many new divers are opting for a pony as an alternative to developing skills that they need and that's a mistake.
How is the use of a pony flawed?
Because, at it's best, a pony bottle is not the best choice for either of the two concerns - redundant air supply and additional air supply - that it is supposed to address. That doesn't mean it's an ineffective or even unacceptable solution, just second or third rate. The third reason divers for using a pony, to mask inadequate skills or to extend the range of unprepared divers, IS an unacceptable solution.
Exactly how does having 20 to 30 cf of fully redundant air supply NOT provide an extra level of safety, redundancy?
Most of the time, more air = good. If, however, you can't manage your air supply, having an extra 20 cf of air does you what good? You're still going to run out, it's just going to take you longer to do so and let you get yourself in even more trouble while you're down there. Too often, pony bottles are a walk-before-you-crawl solution and every parent knows what that causes.
No, I don't mean to pick on Don either because he is a smart man and I imagine he learns from his mistakes and right now he is getting picked on in the other Pony thread up in scuba disccusions. Just not his day.
Well, you could look at the pony and see if a huge stream of bubbles is blowing out of it---lol---that is just me though.
N
Well, you could look at the pony and see if a huge stream of bubbles is blowing out of it---lol---that is just me though.
N
b1draper
Contributor
Ok, there seems to be the idea that everyone who uses a pony is inexperienced or using it for the wrong reasons. Ponies have specific uses as do doubles.
I think of a pony as an extra storage of air in case either I or my buddy has a problem. By problem I mean one of any number of things.
For instance, if I run out of air (which has never happened) and my buddy isn't around I'm grabbing for my pony. If my buddy runs out of air I'm handing him my pony and we're ending the dive. I would hand my buddy my pony because then I know that they have at least 19cf to get them to the surface. And I always have plenty of gas usually ending a dive with just less than 1000 psi.
But the main reason I got the pony was to cover my own a$% if I have a gear failure. I've already had a HP leak happen to me once, and I didn't really like having to deal with that situation. Just think you’re alone and working your way to the surface mean while your regs are leaking out the air that's going to get you there. Now, if my primary gear fails I just switch to the pony and make my way to the surface.
I do not believe in using a pony to extend my dive time or range, because that's what HP130s, doubles and rebreathers are for. The only time I'm going to come close to running out of air is if I get tangled and have to work on getting myself free.
I think of a pony as an extra storage of air in case either I or my buddy has a problem. By problem I mean one of any number of things.
For instance, if I run out of air (which has never happened) and my buddy isn't around I'm grabbing for my pony. If my buddy runs out of air I'm handing him my pony and we're ending the dive. I would hand my buddy my pony because then I know that they have at least 19cf to get them to the surface. And I always have plenty of gas usually ending a dive with just less than 1000 psi.
But the main reason I got the pony was to cover my own a$% if I have a gear failure. I've already had a HP leak happen to me once, and I didn't really like having to deal with that situation. Just think you’re alone and working your way to the surface mean while your regs are leaking out the air that's going to get you there. Now, if my primary gear fails I just switch to the pony and make my way to the surface.
I do not believe in using a pony to extend my dive time or range, because that's what HP130s, doubles and rebreathers are for. The only time I'm going to come close to running out of air is if I get tangled and have to work on getting myself free.
Sometime ago I posted this on another board during a fairly heated discussion on Pony's. Not all of it may be applicable here but some might be valuable and I do not have the time to re-write it specifically for this case of a recurring theme:
"At this point I would like to state that I wholeheartedly agree that when it comes to technical diving then the Team Approach is the only safe way. In those dives any problems have to be solved at depth and unless you have an integrated team who have worked and trained together there can be disastrous results. Ideally we would like to have the same situation in recreational diving but that is frankly being unrealistic. Let’s compare the two groups. Most divers who go on to technical diving are addicted to diving in one way or another. They eat, sleep and live diving, spend the money on equipment and training and also spend a considerable amount of their spare time diving and developing their skills. Most recreational divers get certified and maybe take an extra few courses so they can dive when they are away on vacation and maybe also do a little bit of local diving during the summer. They are not part of a Diving Team and even if they have a regular buddy it is still not Team Diving as GUE would define. Unlike the Technical Divers they do not go away on Dive Team trips but go on vacation with their families where they may take a charter or two to get in some diving. I am not sure how many dives a year would be average for this group but it is probably less than 20.
So what happens when members of this group raise the issue of ponys as a redundant air source. Normally a member of the technical diving community will advise them not to substitute equipment for skill, or some such statement, and tell them that you should rely on your buddy for your redundant air source. This is often the same individual who on a different thread is lamenting the present quality of training and the poor diving and buddy skills that recreational divers exhibit. That’s right, although he does not think they are safe at any depth, he is quite prepared to tell you to trust those same divers with your life. When you point this out you are advised that you should only dive with buddies that you can rely on. This is sound advice but it is not always practical if you want to take a day charter while on vacation or if you are even going with your local club where there may be some newer divers with limited experience. Yes the technical divers will travel with their team, diving after all is often the reason and almost the entire focus of the trip.
So as a recreational diver on vacation you can, well! what can you do if you listen to this advice? probably play golf. If on the other hand you would like to dive and have a concern that you may be faced with a situation of diving with an unknown buddy whose skill set and response in an emergency are also unknown then you may want to make yourself a little more self-sufficient when it comes to the one thing we really need when diving which is air. Oh no! protest the pony detractors, look at all the complexity and task loading you are adding to your dive, you are diving an unbalanced rig, think of the extra weight swing from the extra air etc. These the same divers that regularly have 4 different regulators some delivering gas that could kill them if used at the improper depth. No they say, you are adding too much complexity, what if the gas you have in your pony is not suitable for the depth you are at. It’s a pony tank guys, we fill them with air, yes that stuff you use for tires, believe it or not it is not toxic and can support life at all recreational depths. It will take someone about 2 minute to learn to how to deploy a side slung pony and probably less than 30 seconds to actually do it even under duress. Guys, to suggest that most recreational divers do not somehow have the capacity to do this is frankly insulting. Oh yes, there are a few that may not have the competence to do this and other things, these are the guys we are trying to protect ourselves from when we get inadvertently buddied up with them
OK now that you have your pony these same guys are going to look down their noses and suggest you are obviously incapable of gas management and are a dangerous diver because now you have the pony you obviously are going to use that emergency gas to extend your dive or push the limits etc. etc., after all if you knew what you were doing you would do it their way because doing it any other way is wrong. I do not know how many divers there are but I am confident that these same Technical Divers do not represent ten percent of the diving community and it is probably closer to one percent than the ten. Their ideas, methods and discipline are critical in the diving they are doing but it does not mean that recreational divers need to follow these very same methods. You may not want to tell them that though because they do sometimes get a little upset.
Well I have talked about a common reason to have a pony for those times that you are diving with an unknown buddy on a vacation for example. Why else might they be a good idea. Why might I want one when I am diving with my regular buddy who has always been reliable and stayed close. An example might be that your reliable buddy who you have practiced emergency drills with turns out to be an absolute hoover when the sh!t hits the fan and what would normally be an adequate reserve is diminished quickly. Much better to have the extra gas than be forced into a hurried ascent. Another consideration in our lakes diving is that freeflows are not unknown and for some people are quite common. If the conditions are conducive to freeflows you may just tip your buddies reg over the brink when both of you breathe from it, a redundant air supply can avoid this.
"At this point I would like to state that I wholeheartedly agree that when it comes to technical diving then the Team Approach is the only safe way. In those dives any problems have to be solved at depth and unless you have an integrated team who have worked and trained together there can be disastrous results. Ideally we would like to have the same situation in recreational diving but that is frankly being unrealistic. Let’s compare the two groups. Most divers who go on to technical diving are addicted to diving in one way or another. They eat, sleep and live diving, spend the money on equipment and training and also spend a considerable amount of their spare time diving and developing their skills. Most recreational divers get certified and maybe take an extra few courses so they can dive when they are away on vacation and maybe also do a little bit of local diving during the summer. They are not part of a Diving Team and even if they have a regular buddy it is still not Team Diving as GUE would define. Unlike the Technical Divers they do not go away on Dive Team trips but go on vacation with their families where they may take a charter or two to get in some diving. I am not sure how many dives a year would be average for this group but it is probably less than 20.
So what happens when members of this group raise the issue of ponys as a redundant air source. Normally a member of the technical diving community will advise them not to substitute equipment for skill, or some such statement, and tell them that you should rely on your buddy for your redundant air source. This is often the same individual who on a different thread is lamenting the present quality of training and the poor diving and buddy skills that recreational divers exhibit. That’s right, although he does not think they are safe at any depth, he is quite prepared to tell you to trust those same divers with your life. When you point this out you are advised that you should only dive with buddies that you can rely on. This is sound advice but it is not always practical if you want to take a day charter while on vacation or if you are even going with your local club where there may be some newer divers with limited experience. Yes the technical divers will travel with their team, diving after all is often the reason and almost the entire focus of the trip.
So as a recreational diver on vacation you can, well! what can you do if you listen to this advice? probably play golf. If on the other hand you would like to dive and have a concern that you may be faced with a situation of diving with an unknown buddy whose skill set and response in an emergency are also unknown then you may want to make yourself a little more self-sufficient when it comes to the one thing we really need when diving which is air. Oh no! protest the pony detractors, look at all the complexity and task loading you are adding to your dive, you are diving an unbalanced rig, think of the extra weight swing from the extra air etc. These the same divers that regularly have 4 different regulators some delivering gas that could kill them if used at the improper depth. No they say, you are adding too much complexity, what if the gas you have in your pony is not suitable for the depth you are at. It’s a pony tank guys, we fill them with air, yes that stuff you use for tires, believe it or not it is not toxic and can support life at all recreational depths. It will take someone about 2 minute to learn to how to deploy a side slung pony and probably less than 30 seconds to actually do it even under duress. Guys, to suggest that most recreational divers do not somehow have the capacity to do this is frankly insulting. Oh yes, there are a few that may not have the competence to do this and other things, these are the guys we are trying to protect ourselves from when we get inadvertently buddied up with them
OK now that you have your pony these same guys are going to look down their noses and suggest you are obviously incapable of gas management and are a dangerous diver because now you have the pony you obviously are going to use that emergency gas to extend your dive or push the limits etc. etc., after all if you knew what you were doing you would do it their way because doing it any other way is wrong. I do not know how many divers there are but I am confident that these same Technical Divers do not represent ten percent of the diving community and it is probably closer to one percent than the ten. Their ideas, methods and discipline are critical in the diving they are doing but it does not mean that recreational divers need to follow these very same methods. You may not want to tell them that though because they do sometimes get a little upset.
Well I have talked about a common reason to have a pony for those times that you are diving with an unknown buddy on a vacation for example. Why else might they be a good idea. Why might I want one when I am diving with my regular buddy who has always been reliable and stayed close. An example might be that your reliable buddy who you have practiced emergency drills with turns out to be an absolute hoover when the sh!t hits the fan and what would normally be an adequate reserve is diminished quickly. Much better to have the extra gas than be forced into a hurried ascent. Another consideration in our lakes diving is that freeflows are not unknown and for some people are quite common. If the conditions are conducive to freeflows you may just tip your buddies reg over the brink when both of you breathe from it, a redundant air supply can avoid this.
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