Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?

[NC Wreck Diver]

Um, yeah, if you "only dive solo" (i.e. don't dive in teams) you're unlikely to be a very good team diver.

I'm really confused here with your replies. Are you upset with:

1). A dive boat operator (NJ seems to be in the crosshairs here) requiring a pony bottle or doubles to dive off his boat?

2) The compentancy of solo divers vs. team divers? Experienced divers can easily do both. New guys may take a little practice.

3). Policies of NEW JERSEY BOAT OPERATORS in general.

I see you're in LA, but it seems like you have a large amount of Jersey experience. Can you show me a link that says every Jersey boat operation is the same?

If an operator of a dive boat makes a requirement for the safety of his guests, roll with it or dive another boat. I'm stopped by certain boats that require 'no spearfishing allowed' in NC since the Sand Tigers are present. I don't agree with it, but I live with it, because the captain has made a decision for the safety of everyone involved. He's the frickin CAPTAIN. It's his way or the highway.

I thought you LA guys were so mellow...........

 

[Rainer]

I don't know of a NJ dive boat that doesn't require it or strongly recommend it.

A strong recommendation is quite different than a requirement.

Perhaps some of the ones that are run as 6-packs don't have it codified as a policy, but I've been on those boats and know the captains. Other than someone they know and/or who's diving on something inshore (perhaps an intact, artificially reefed tug in 70fsw) they are not going to let someone on the boat - much less in the water - if they think they are not geared appropriately for the dive and conditions.

Sure, and the same reasoning is what prevents perfectly capable solo divers from diving solo in many places. The question is why do certain captains (and across all of the North East this is clearly a minority position) feel that team diving in recreational waters without ponies is inadequate. My personal belief is it's for the same reason captains elsewhere don't allow solo diving: ignorance. If (for whatever reason), you don't tend to see divers adequately equipped, experienced, or trained (for either solo or team diving), you might tend to be dismissive of those activities.

Ultimately I think you're off the mark in thinking that a policy requiring redundant air supply is somehow indicative of a big brother mentallity. It's not. Given that you have claimed no personal experience with any of the NJ boats in question, I'm guessing you have no idea.

Do you feel the diving in NJ is fundamentally different than the diving in MA, RI, ME, CT, etc? Certainly the New England waters are colder, but I doubt the currents, visibility, and entanglement hazards are all that different. The captains in New England aren't as prescriptive in their requirements. I don't see any more accidents there (if anything less). Do you have any North East diving experience outside of NJ/NY? Perhaps we have been diving in vastly different conditions in the North Atlantic. Somehow, though, I'm doubtful.

Again, I don't think that asking that you have the minimum training, experience, and gear that is generally considered appropriate to the dive to be an onerous expectation.

Clearly safety is crucial. And a captain has every right to define safe parameters for diving off his boat. I haven't said otherwise. It would only seem that we disagree about what constitutes safety. I don't for a moment believe that simply strapping a piece of gear on makes you even a bit safer. For certain divers, it probably decreases safety. I, and many others, feel that a solid team in recreational depths/BTs can just as safely execute dives in the North East as new divers with a pony bottle. Yet, certain captains in NJ will only let the latter dive off their boats. IMO, in that case, safety hasn't been increased. If safety were the only concern, filing gas plans and showing evidence of training on the redundant gear (pony, doubles, etc) would also be required.

 

[idocsteve]

The question is why do certain captains (and across all of the North East this is clearly a minority position) feel that team diving in recreational waters without ponies is inadequate. My personal belief is it's for the same reason captains elsewhere don't allow solo diving: ignorance..

Rainer, you seem like a smart guy, you write well and you make an effort to respond to those who have provided you with their thoughts and opinions, but yet you persist on this dead end track that's getting you nowhere but frustrated.

I'm going to take a different approach here.

When you were a little boy, your mom told you to put your rubbers on before you stepped out the front door to catch the school bus in the pouring rain.

Depending on her style of parenting, mom might have "recommended" that you put them on, she may have "required" that you put them on, and her reasons for doing so might have been because she was afraid your feet would get wet and you'd drop dead of pneumonia. Whether or not her fears were valid is not the point and it's not your question. You want to know why your mom made you put on your rubbers, and in this parallel scenario you would ask your best friend Bobby, who might tell you that your mom said to wear them so you don't get sick but it might have been more prudent for Bobby to tell you to go ask your mother because she has her own reasons.

When you were a teenager your mom may have told you to grab your rubbers before you went out on that date but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Point being, if you want to know why a particular dive boat captain requires or recommends that you use a pony bottle, go ask him or her. All the rest of us can do is give you our best guess.

 

[Rainer]

I'm really confused here with your replies. Are you upset with:

You're confused because I'm not upset with anyone/anything. I might disagree with certain policies, but that's an intellectual issue, not an emotional one.

1). A dive boat operator (NJ seems to be in the crosshairs here) requiring a pony bottle or doubles to dive off his boat?

I'm *curious* about such policies, not upset about them. Just like I'm curious about no solo diving policies. In only one case, however, would I actually be affected by such a policy.

2) The compentancy of solo divers vs. team divers? Experienced divers can easily do both. New guys may take a little practice.

I think there are competent solo divers and competent team divers. There are incompetent ones of each as well. I think both types of competent divers should be able to dive as they see fit the world over.

3). Policies of NEW JERSEY BOAT OPERATORS in general.

See (1) and (2) above.

I see you're in LA, but it seems like you have a large amount of Jersey experience. Can you show me a link that says every Jersey boat operation is the same?

You've grossly misread what I've written. I have ZERO NJ experience. My experience is in New England waters (mostly MA), where I lived and dived for several years. I admit, I *am* making an assumption that diving in MA is comparable to diving in NJ.

I've also never claimed every NJ boat op was the same. I *asked* if that were the case, and was told that some ops have different policies (though RJP did mention in a previous post that he himself hadn't seem much variation on this issue).

If an operator of a dive boat makes a requirement for the safety of his guests, roll with it or dive another boat. I'm stopped by certain boats that require 'no spearfishing allowed' in NC since the Sand Tigers are present. I don't agree with it, but I live with it, because the captain has made a decision for the safety of everyone involved. He's the frickin CAPTAIN. It's his way or the highway.

That's my philosophy as well. Clearly I only patronize those boats whose policies match my style of diving. I'd hope none of us are compromising on what we perceive to be safety (vs. convenience) issues. Remember, this is just an internet forum. It's a medium much more conducive to discussion than action. I'm not looking to change any NJ policies. I am interested in better understanding them and even debating them. Discussion is entertaining.

 

[Rainer]

Point being, if you want to know why a particular dive boat captain requires or recommends that you use a pony bottle, go ask him or her. All the rest of us can do is give you our best guess.

LOL, you make a good point. If all I cared about were individual boat policies, I might bother, too. For me, for now, internet forums work just fine (and are vastly more entertaining). To think I'm even remotely frustrated is rather funny.

 

[Rainer]

There are stupid people out there and it's a good thing that there are some who take the time and effort to watch out for them.

How'd you feel about all those ops that were taking the time and effort to watch out for you by not letting you dive solo?

 

[idocsteve]

For me, for now, internet forums work just fine (and are vastly more entertaining).

To think I'm even remotely frustrated is rather funny.

True, perhaps I was projecting. And if that's true then I've been out-trolled. And THAT doesn't happen every day.

+1

My guess is you know what +1 means.

:cool2:

 

[Rainer]

This type of response is hard to take too seriously. EVERY operator feels the same (customer safety is of primary concern). Yet most (even those in similar North Atlantic waters) don't have the same prescriptive dive policies. Is your argument then that those boats don't value safety as much as your (and certain other NJ) operations?

Is solo diving in the FL Keys somehow not safe (or even just less safe than in NJ)? Broadly speaking, of course not. Competent solo divers can execute safe dives. I don't see why boats should ban this in the name of safety (which is *always* the reason given).

Because when you're on our boat, myself, fellow crew members, and captain, are all ready, willing and able to risk our own safety to rescue you - or retrieve your body - if necessary. Accordingly we tend to care about how you dive, and I don't think that asking you to do one or two simple things to help reduce the potential that we'll need to risk our lives is asking too much.

If you've ever had occasion to crew on a boat have the captain yell to you from the bridge "Holy s--t, diver up off the bow! Diver up! Get in the water! Get in the water!" and then swam out to said diver, rolled her over, and seen that she wasn't there anymore... you'd be a bit more circumspect about the whole thing.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

For those who are GIF impaired- I'll label it for you.

This thread is beating a dead horse..........

Not funny when you have to explain it. I am sure an argument will ensue regarding the explanation, perhaps about how it would be safer to "team beat" the dead horse.......

 

[Rainer]

Something about you liking beating off?