Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?

[idocsteve]

My only issue is with operators that feel they know best what is safe for my diving (especially when I'm familiar with the environment in question). I think it's silly to "force" buddies (because you don't find solo divers adequate). I also think it's silly to "force" redundancy (because you don't find teams adequate) on recreational dives. Either position strikes me as narrow minded.

Now you're starting to make "some" sense.

1- Certified divers are expected to plan and carry out their own dives in a competent and responsible manner, it's not up to the dive op how they do so, in my opinion.

2- It's more than "silly" to force buddies on a diver, it's a matter of the Dive Op sharing potential liability as well as possibly endangering one diver by hooking them up with a diver with poor skills, an tendency to panic, or something along those lines.

3- As per "forcing redundancy" it was clearly explained to you that if the "usual and customary" process is to require divers to use pony bottles and a dive op does not do this and there's an "incident" they may be liable in a court of law. What better explanation do you need before you say "ok, that makes sense to me, my question is answered".

 

[Rainer]

1- Certified divers are expected to plan and carry out their own dives in a competent and responsible manner, it's not up to the dive op how they do so, in my opinion.

We share that opinion. Sadly, some NJ operators do not.

2- It's more than "silly" to force buddies on a diver, it's a matter of the Dive Op sharing potential liability as well as possibly endangering one diver by hooking them up with a diver with poor skills, an tendency to panic, or something along those lines.

But clearly many dive ops across the world disagree and will not allow solo diving (or at least they won't let you leave the boat without a buddy). One could argue that in such locations this "usual and customary" process makes it a good policy. I'd disagree. Rather, I'd like to see divers allowed to plan their own dives and execute them.

3- As per "forcing redundancy" it was clearly explained to you that if the "usual and customary" process is to require divers to use pony bottles and a dive op does not do this and there's an "incident" they may be liable in a court of law. What better explanation do you need before you say "ok, that makes sense to me, my question is answered".

That wasn't "clearly explained", it was just one of *many* possible explanations offered. Others thought in might be a law or insurance policy. That other NJ boats don't have such a policy demonstrates that it's not a compelling reason for some NJ operators. It's certainly not a compelling reason for the majority of the NE boats, since few outside of NJ/NY have a similar policy.

 

[idocsteve]

But clearly many dive ops across the world disagree and will not allow solo diving (or at least they won't let you leave the boat without a buddy). One could argue that in such locations this "usual and customary" process makes it a good policy. I'd disagree. Rather, I'd like to see divers allowed to plan their own dives and execute them.

I'd rather see that too. I was denied permission to dive solo off the OEW pier during my trip to Curacao 2 weeks ago and had to do it off the All West Apartment reef instead. In addition on one boat dive where my girlfriend wasn't present the divemaster hooked me up with an instabuddy. I said nothing on the boat when he said "you two are buddies" and we did not dive together. Whether or not my liabilty was less because I didn't acknowledge the instabuddy pairing and the fact that neither instabuddy nor I made any attempt to stay together is beyond the scope of this thread but I think you get my point.

Most dive Ops in the Florida Keys won't allow Solo Diving, but they too will be happy to fix you up with a buddy of unknown skills and drop all that liability in your lap while they collect your money.

I don't like the policy either but crying about it over and over isn't going to change it. Show your disappointment by letting these Ops know that you'll dive off a boat that will allow you to dive as you have been trained and certified, not by whining about it here. Or do something like the following:

I recommend divers check out Conch Republic Divers in the Florida Keys, they are a professional and well run organization and I was quite satisfied with my experience. They are also the only dive Op that I am aware of in the Florida Keys that acknowledges and respects the SDI Solo Diving certificate.

That wasn't "clearly explained", it was just one of *many* possible explanations offered. Others thought in might be a law or insurance policy. That other NJ boats don't have such a policy demonstrates that it's not a compelling reason for some NJ operators. It's certainly not a compelling reason for the majority of the NE boats, since few outside of NJ/NY have a similar policy.

Ok, you have a point. Liability concerns is one possible reason but it's not necessarily THE reason that NJ dive boats require the use of a pony bottle.

How about you call a few Captains and ASK THEM? Then when they explain their reasons you can thank them for their time and advise them that you will be diving elsewhere because you think that policy blows donkey dick.

 

[sardiverdan]

I must say in my 30 years of diving I have never seen so much discussion over a pony bottle. Here is your answer. Its their policy, use the pony or don't use their boat. Its not that difficult

 

[Rainer]

Duh it's their policy, I linked it in the OP.

The question was (and has been) "why".

So your "answer" isn't all that useful. I'm not looking to use the boat, I'm curious about the origin of the policy (for which I still don't feel any definitive response has been given, though several likely explanations were offered). That I don't like it is obvious.

I feel the same way about other Big Brother ("we know what's best for you") policies such as "no solo diving".

 

[RJP]

That wasn't "clearly explained", it was just one of *many* possible explanations offered. Others thought in might be a law or insurance policy. That other NJ boats don't have such a policy demonstrates that it's not a compelling reason for some NJ operators.

I don't know of a NJ dive boat that doesn't require it or strongly recommend it. Perhaps some of the ones that are run as 6-packs don't have it codified as a policy, but I've been on those boats and know the captains. Other than someone they know and/or who's diving on something inshore (perhaps an intact, artificially reefed tug in 70fsw) they are not going to let someone on the boat - much less in the water - if they think they are not geared appropriately for the dive and conditions.

Ultimately I think you're off the mark in thinking that a policy requiring redundant air supply is somehow indicative of a big brother mentallity. It's not. Given that you have claimed no personal experience with any of the NJ boats in question, I'm guessing you have no idea. You will not find anyplace where you are universally allowed to "plan your dive and dive your plan" than the boats here in NJ. Again, I don't think that asking that you have the minimum training, experience, and gear that is generally considered appropriate to the dive to be an onerous expectation.

On our boat - and most others - when we get to the dive site all we ask is that you tell us your run time and be back on board no later that when you've said. Other than that, you can dive by yourself, with a buddy, or holding hands with your parish priest if you like. (As long as he has a redundant air supply as well.)

If you're ever inclined to come find out what your talking about we'd love to have you!

:cool2:

 

[RJP]

Duh it's their policy, I linked it in the OP.

The question was (and has been) "why".

I believe I answered this question in post #49 of this thread, the fact that you disagree/dislike the answer notwithstanding.

 

[wrybosome]

I must say in my 30 years of diving I have never seen so much discussion over a pony bottle. Here is your answer. Its their policy, use the pony or don't use their boat. Its not that difficult

Welcome to Scubaboard!

 

[RJP]

Why are you (and NJ boat operators) so concerned about how I dive?

Because when you're on our boat, myself, fellow crew members, and captain, are all ready, willing and able to risk our own safety to rescue you - or retrieve your body - if necessary. Accordingly we tend to care about how you dive, and I don't think that asking you to do one or two simple things to help reduce the potential that we'll need to risk our lives is asking too much.

If you've ever had occasion to crew on a boat have the captain yell to you from the bridge "Holy s--t, diver up off the bow! Diver up! Get in the water! Get in the water!" and then swam out to said diver, rolled her over, and seen that she wasn't there anymore... you'd be a bit more circumspect about the whole thing.

 

[idocsteve]

Duh it's their policy, I linked it in the OP.

The question was (and has been) "why".

So your "answer" isn't all that useful. I'm not looking to use the boat, I'm curious about the origin of the policy (for which I still don't feel any definitive response has been given, though several likely explanations were offered). That I don't like it is obvious.

I feel the same way about other Big Brother ("we know what's best for you") policies such as "no solo diving".

Your question really was answered.

All the potential hazards and situations where a redundant air source would be at the very least useful and at best a lifesaver have been spelled out, such as in post #49 by RJP. But you are really asking: "Even though I know all the reasons a redundant air source should be used, why do they REQUIRE it?".

Because they're watching out for you and watching out for themselves at the same time because they are well aware of those situations because many have witnessed them firsthand.

I've dived off of boats in NY and have seen divers hop in the water solo wearing an AL80 and drop to depths of 100 feet or so with no redundant air supply. If something happened to them, who do you think is going to get sued by anyone who might profit from their death or disability?

There are stupid people out there and it's a good thing that there are some who take the time and effort to watch out for them.