Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?
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Scuba Ken
Contributor
If you dive a pony it does give you the extra reserve in emergency to be more lenient on your main tank reserve. Going on rules of thirds in a 3000 psi tank you have to 2000PSI to get down do the dive and get out. Another good reason for the pony would be potentially going into accidental deco and needed more air to complete the stop. Entanglement would be a potential what if scenario to consider. NJ wrecks are heavily fished and entanglement is a real issue. At 100-130 feet how much time would really have to solve a problem on a single tank and stay NDL. There are a lot of potential what ifs where an extra 40cf could make the difference. You could definitely dive extra conservatively with a single and a good buddy as backup, but I feel the requirement to dive a pony isn't unreasonable and is good practice, given how fast air is consumed at those depths and the potential for mishaps.
Just thought of another issue - Buddy breathing on a reg in 40 degree water could also lead to a reg freeze freeflow. Also surface current can be high even if at depth its not. Buddy breathing while flying like a flag from the upline would be very stressful.
While the requirement may not be necessary - it does fall into reason that it is a prudent and safe practice. I wouldn't call it silly.
Just thought of another issue - Buddy breathing on a reg in 40 degree water could also lead to a reg freeze freeflow. Also surface current can be high even if at depth its not. Buddy breathing while flying like a flag from the upline would be very stressful.
While the requirement may not be necessary - it does fall into reason that it is a prudent and safe practice. I wouldn't call it silly.
Extra gas is almost never a bad thing, that we can agree about.
Whether it's in a bottle attached to you or your buddy doesn't matter as long as it's easily accessible. Personally, for dives that require redundant gas, I'm taking doubles, not a pony. That your own redundancy can be a good thing for certain dives is hardly the issue being debated. I do a fair amount of dives where doubles are (for me) a clear necessity. The vast majority of recreational dives in the North Atlantic (at least if MA, ME, and RI are indicative) do not require that form of redundancy if you have a solid team. Again, obviously, IMO.
On a single 130, even reserving 40cf for rock bottom / min gas, I've still got enough gas to max out NDLs on 32% at 100'. That's a perfectly reasonable dive for me.
Accidentally going into deco just isn't a concern barring some real disaster. In any case, I'm already reserving a ton of gas for rock bottom (at least as much as anyone is carrying in a pony) which could cover any such (unlikely) scenario.
Entanglement is a risk in the North East. For heavily fished sites, I probably would take doubles. I've had to cut myself and others out of mono a few times. Here's a perfect scenario where a buddy can prove a lot more handy than a pony (which has poor muscle control).
The freeflow thing is really a red herring. We used to try to make our regs freeflow (had heard the same stories as you) with two divers sucking away as hard as possible in waters in the mid-30sF. Never could get it to happen. We do dive decent regs and they are properly adjusted for cold water diving.
Gas sharing in current is made a lot easier with a long hose. Having had to share gas in current on a 40" hose when my 70' bottle exploded on a deco dive wasn't an issue. As is usually the case, it mostly comes down to training.
What I find silly isn't the recommendation but the requirement. There's no doubt that *some* teams without ponies are going to be safer than *some* solo divers with ponies. I believe it's best left to the divers to plan and execute their dives. I'm open to whether some proof of training (whether for team diving or pony bottle use) should be required.
Whether it's in a bottle attached to you or your buddy doesn't matter as long as it's easily accessible. Personally, for dives that require redundant gas, I'm taking doubles, not a pony. That your own redundancy can be a good thing for certain dives is hardly the issue being debated. I do a fair amount of dives where doubles are (for me) a clear necessity. The vast majority of recreational dives in the North Atlantic (at least if MA, ME, and RI are indicative) do not require that form of redundancy if you have a solid team. Again, obviously, IMO.
On a single 130, even reserving 40cf for rock bottom / min gas, I've still got enough gas to max out NDLs on 32% at 100'. That's a perfectly reasonable dive for me.
Accidentally going into deco just isn't a concern barring some real disaster. In any case, I'm already reserving a ton of gas for rock bottom (at least as much as anyone is carrying in a pony) which could cover any such (unlikely) scenario.
Entanglement is a risk in the North East. For heavily fished sites, I probably would take doubles. I've had to cut myself and others out of mono a few times. Here's a perfect scenario where a buddy can prove a lot more handy than a pony (which has poor muscle control).
The freeflow thing is really a red herring. We used to try to make our regs freeflow (had heard the same stories as you) with two divers sucking away as hard as possible in waters in the mid-30sF. Never could get it to happen. We do dive decent regs and they are properly adjusted for cold water diving.
Gas sharing in current is made a lot easier with a long hose. Having had to share gas in current on a 40" hose when my 70' bottle exploded on a deco dive wasn't an issue. As is usually the case, it mostly comes down to training.
What I find silly isn't the recommendation but the requirement. There's no doubt that *some* teams without ponies are going to be safer than *some* solo divers with ponies. I believe it's best left to the divers to plan and execute their dives. I'm open to whether some proof of training (whether for team diving or pony bottle use) should be required.
Nothing makes me confident about someone I don't know diving around me. Case in point:
The bailout bottles which I've donated to other divers (over the years) were due to diver inexperience, or negligence. It's close to impossible to really know what someone's skillset when you have an open boat. My last air emergency donation (which was televised and embedded in a larger story about adventure) was due to hard exertion and lack of gas monitoring. On this working dive I saw the "experienced" diver struggle beforehand at the bottom where he waived off my advice about conserving gas several minutes before he was tugging at my sleeve when I was filming.
When I work I typically carry an 80 luxfer for those 'what if's' and glad I had it on me. The person needing gas could have easily drained my single 120 in a matter of minutes if we had air-shared. We were at 110 in massive current. A full 80 cu. at 110' being honked on hard enough should be enough to get a normal person up to the surface barring any deco obligations. I prefer an 80 because on my first certification dive I was paired with a gas-honker who drained his Nemrod 80 in under 10 minutes. I learned early on that more is better than just enough.
While the heart of the issue of "required" redundancy is really competency...it comes down to a charter operator wanting to add another layer of safety to an open boat and addressing those "what ifs. I can imagine insurance companies recommending (dictating) the overall "required" gear list. So, while you argue your points - I find it more than reasonable to abide by the bailout requirements of the boat.
Yeah, me too, I had to cross him off my Holiday gift list and was going to get him such a nice shiny new pony bottle......
Waiting for RJP............
Busy with my day job, sorry for delay!
The policy is pretty clear and simple:
All divers MUST dive with a pony or stage bottle with a separate regulator, including students. There will be no exceptions to this rule.
I agree with the policy, understand why it is place, and wouldn't change it, but I do not speak directly for the boat/captain as to why this policy is in place. This post is my own personal opinion. (Note: I will confirm with the captain that "doubles" meets the redundancy requirement. I'm 99.99% certain that is the case, and will suggest that the wording on the website be revised to reflect this.)
From my own personal experience I have never encountered or heard of anyone out here diving with a redundant air supply (pony/stage/doubles) drowning due to going OOG or any other problem that prevents access to a single gas supply.
I have on the other hand seen and heard of people who've had problems. Most of the time the diver will admit after the fact that their incident would have been a mere nuisance if they had redundant supply. Sadly, in other cases we'll never know whether a redundant air supply would have obviated the problem.
To suggest that requiring a redundant air supply here in NJ is "a gear solution to a skill problem" is a bit far fetched.
We are trained to plan and gear for those situations that one might reasonably expect to encounter on any given dive. This will sound like "NJ Diver" bravado, but we dive deep, usually fairly dark, sometimes in arm's-length or less viz, in currents that come/go/change, on wrecks that are often busted up debris fields, covered with lines/monofilament/traps/cables and a million other things that can snag you, turn you around, disorient you, etc. Accordingly, buddy separation is a very real possibility for even the most well-trained, diligent divers.
Diving with a redundant air supply here is nothing more than reasonably prudent. Yes we "require it" but the fact of the matter is we've never had to "enforce" this rule by leaving someone at the dock or keeping them out of the water, because everyone who dives here would bring redundancy even if we DIDN'T require it.
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