Pony bottle/alternate air

[Nemrod]

hugedodge2000 says:
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If you know what your doing you don't need auxillary air sources. Keep an eye on your gauges!!

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I think you must not have read through the thread---again--deja vue---the pony bottle is not about running out of air--it is about redundancy. OOA is not the only possible issue.

What your saying applies to any type of diving, why use isolation manifolds and instead use a non isolating manifold instead--if all there was to it was "watching your guages"? Why, because doubles with isolation manifolds are not about running out of air--they are about robust redundancy.

Watching your guages does not provide redundancy--sorry---back to school for you.

N

 

[O.M.O.H.]

First of all, Nemrod: great comment as always!!!


Wow… can we all just get along. Anyway this whole thing is just getting out of hand…

Here are my ¢2 though: In the very beginning we all have established that a pony bottle is NOT I repeat is not a device that is geared towards providing an additional few cubic feet of air to the out of air diver. NOT! So what’s with all the arguing and “the long faces mon”? A pony tank is an effective substitute solution to a redundant air supply for an unlikely event of catastrophic demand valve failures. Yes they are unlikely, regulators these days are incredibly well built and given a proper maintenance and care will serve trouble-free for many years.
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In my previous life I was a trained as a commercial aircraft pilot and did quite a bit of study and research into advanced aircraft systems and crew and cockpit management. So in most aircraft, essential and advanced systems are designed with a triple (or sometimes even a quadruple) redundancy. For example Airbus 320 series has three hydraulic systems (blue, yellow, and green) plus a mechanically actuated one with a ram air turbine for a total electrical failure or double engine shutdown… So redundancy for regulators and tanks is necessary. Whthre or not it is suitable for “just-certified” divers/ according to my instructor and lds operator: YES, but with proper training and attitude.


Also I’ve learned that aircraft crew resource management and diving resource management is quite similar. One main rule for a pilot and it applies to a diver is: Think not one step ahead but three (again tipple redundancy). That means that:

Step 1. Use your primary stage 2​

Step 2. Use octopus if primary stage 2 fails
Step 2a. Use pony if primary stage 2 fails or got to step 3
Step 3. Use Pony if Primary Stage 1 and Octopus both fail
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There are many variations of this but none of them involve, at least in my mind, running out of air. Correct me if i am wrong... I am not proud and willing to learn.

What does any of this have to do with watching your gauges? Nothing!!!

In some cases a pony may be utilized as an additional air supply for an out of air situation. One comes to mind where a diver runs low on air while trying to escape a shark or fighting a giant squid or whatever (I am being facetious of course) and utilizes a pony to save his bum and get safe to the surface. Again this all comes back to diver’s attitude towards this activity. If a person is incapable of managing his air supply this does not mean he/she is a bad person. This means that he/she needs additional training or needs to be stabbed with a dive knife with a serrated edge before he kills himself or anyone else around him. Make your choice for every individual occurrence.
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On the serious side though, here in the NYC and NJ, many dive boat operators will not even let you on board if don’t have a pony or a set of doubles… Also I’ve spoken to my instructor and LDS owner a few times about ponies and both are convinced that a pony is best investment I diver could make before training for and purchasing a set of doubles. What is a time that spent between a person goes from diving with a single tank + pony to diving doubles, in many cases five to ten years. I tend to believe the both guys because between the two of them they have about 65 years of technical and rec diving experience, been on Doria a few times, dove in the US Navy, and are both still alive and kicking hard. Can they read their gauges you bet your arse they can.

 

[DandyDon]

A pony tank is an effective substitute solution to a redundant air supply for an unlikely event of catastrophic demand valve failures. Yes they are unlikely, regulators these days are incredibly well built and given a proper maintenance and care will serve trouble-free for many years.

True, in my 6 years, 322 dives, it's only happened to be twice.

Caca happens. :11:

 

[MikeFerrara]

On the serious side though, here in the NYC and NJ, many dive boat operators will not even let you on board if don’t have a pony or a set of doubles… Also I’ve spoken to my instructor and LDS owner a few times about ponies and both are convinced that a pony is best investment I diver could make before training for and purchasing a set of doubles. What is a time that spent between a person goes from diving with a single tank + pony to diving doubles, in many cases five to ten years. I tend to believe the both guys because between the two of them they have about 65 years of technical and rec diving experience, been on Doria a few times, dove in the US Navy, and are both still alive and kicking hard. Can they read their gauges you bet your arse they can.

That's an interesting point of view but for any even moderately serious wreck diving training on the order of an "Advanced Notrox" course like that offered by IANTD would leave the diver significantly better prepared for just about any wreck diving than he would be only have the garden variety recreational training and a pony bottle.

There are just a whole bunch of useful, though not difficult, skills that are introduced at that level that unfortunately just aren't usually taught in recreational diving. Personally I would (and did) skip the pony bottle and take that next step. I think a wreck diver who does so will get a bunch more out of his wreck diving.

What I'm getting at is that I don't see a "recreational" skill set with the addition of a pony as a necessary or even useful intermediate step.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I started using doubles when I was 15 yrs old. Then the bigger aluminum 80 tanks came out and I used them as singles. Later I used 100 cu-ft aluminums and now I use 80's, 100's, LP 108 and LP 125 steel tanks (all as single tanks) with the addition of a pony and sometimes another deco bottle of oxygen. Single LP 125's, "when pumped up", hold about as much air as a pair of aluminum 80's.

I do deco dives to 190 feet and see no reason to dive doubles. My one buddy has 2 complete sets of double steel (95's? ) and he has not used them in years, because they just are not necessary and too heavy and slow the diver down too much for spearfishing in high currents.

There are lots of people that will eventually engage in "advanced diving" and never feel the need to graduate to double tanks.

 

[O.M.O.H.]

True, in my 6 years, 322 dives, it's only happened to be twice.

Caca happens. :11:

This computes to 1 out of 161 dives or about 0.6% you had a regulator failure. Although highly debatable this seems somewhat above the average for a life support system failure rate … this means we do need a sort of a redundant air supply for regulator failures.

 

[Nemrod]

dumpsterDiver, you are my new hero! Deco dives to a 190 feet on a single "pumped" up 108 and spearfishing----now that is real diving.

There have been numerous threads here recently including the one where the turrent blew off of a MkV regulator. All the blah, blah talk in the world is not a bit of good when your regulator decides to explode. I have seen and had single hose regulator failures numerous times--in a few cases while at significant depth and a few times when I or the diver was installing the equipment to the tank. I have seen failures of brand new regulators as well and given the poor service training of shop "techs"--any dive shop serviced regulator--should be considered unreliable until at least a test dive or two. The plastic construction of modern regulators just does not lend itself to long term stability.

N

 

[JeffG]

dumpsterDiver, you are my new hero! Deco dives to a 190 feet on a single "pumped" up 108 and spearfishing----now that is real diving.

N

Yea...Using air I bet. It will grow hair on your chest. (except for the spots where the hands are beating the chest) LOL

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I do deco dives to 190 feet and see no reason to dive doubles.....

[Edited by Doc] Nevermind.

Not much needs to be said...

 

[DandyDon]

This computes to 1 out of 161 dives or about 0.6% you had a regulator failure. Although highly debatable this seems somewhat above the average for a life support system failure rate … this means we do need a sort of a redundant air supply for regulator failures.

Like I said, caca happens. I'm sure my bad luck is well above average - someone has to be at the end of the bell curve, and it happens. My handling on one of those made it much worse; I understand that my thread about that is used on another board as an example of how a sutpid person dives.

But that's off topic, which was...

To the ones who dive with these. What is your set up?
Another seperate 1st & 2nd stage? Or bottle with mouth piece connected.
Would the 2nd stage be positioned not near your octo (only for you, not buddy's)?
Do you turn on the air before you enter the water? Every time?
What size bottle?

Thanks all.