Please help me find a new "Non-Suunto" Air Integrated Dive Computer...

[Codeman00]

Instead of bashing Suunto, why not just phrase this as you are seeking a computer with a relatively liberal algorithm? Also, as Diver0001 pointed out, you can set your Suunto to "50% RGBM" to make it more liberal.

This is why my wife and I both dive Suuntos. We end our dives at the same time. We couldn't care less whether "the rest of the group" have computers that say they can dive for 15 more minutes. Though one can debate the statistical likelihood, someday, one of those people may reflect on how much they enjoyed their extra 15 minutes while sitting in the chamber. I feel good in my belief that my wife and I will enjoy thousands of dives without a DCS incident. I can appreciate that you have weighed what you believe is the risk versus the benefit and come to your own decision that you want a more liberal computer. To each his own risk tolerance level. I guess it was the emphatic "Non-Suunto" label that irked me.

"Pseudo" deco, eh? It's not "real" deco? I'll leave that one alone.

---------- Post Merged at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:31 AM ----------

Where did you get that table? That's very interesting. I've never seen the data presented like that. I wonder how it compares for repetitive dives?

Anyway, as for "none of them goes to the chamber" and "no one tells an Oceanic user that he's going to the chamber," I know you realize that the relative risk is based on statistics and thousands and thousands of data points. I know you realize that just because you've seen an Oceanic dived 100 times--a tiny number of data points--without anyone going to the chamber doesn't mean much. Maybe the 100 dives you observed were made by people in top physical shape, in warm water, not overexerting themselves, etc. I myself am getting older and not in as good shape as I once was. Does that increase my DCS risk?--who knows. But I like the conservativeness. Okay, okay, I'll get off my Suunto soapbox. I suspect you're in the majority here on SB, and we conservative Suunto fans are the minority. As I said, I just get annoyed by threads that suggest there is something abnormal about Suunto.

Lorenzoid,

I guess I could have said it a better way but in the end the message is the same. I'm upset with my $600 dive computer and I think others should know what they are getting into when the purchase a Suunto. I wasted money and I want others here to learn for free what I learned with my own money. Suunto is keeping you extra safe...more than is necessary in my opinion (and many other's opinion on this board). If you like extra safe, then a Suunto is perfect choice. If you want to maximize dive time while you are on a hard earned well deserved vacation, then Suunto might not be the answer.

I noted the term "pseudo-deco" because apparently I'm not in real deco otherwise everyone in my dive group throughout the week would have been taken to the chamber. But fortunately enough, everyone was fine even though my computer was the only one that went into deco 3 times. It just doesn't make sense to me to dive a computer that puts me in deco when eveyone else that was diving deeper than me isn't in deco. I hope that makes sense whether you agree with me or not.

The table was found in the stickied link at the top of this forum. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/co...zers/305374-so-you-want-buy-new-computer.html I don't know the numbers of how multiple dives are accounted for with each computer, but I do know that my Suunto penalizes me dearly...especially for quick ascents. And the 50% setting does very little.

See this link for more info.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/co...rs/383345-cobra-2-100-vs-50-rgbm-setting.html

---------- Post Merged at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:44 PM ----------

This sounds implausible. Which mixture of Nitrox were you using?

Actually, its very close to the truth...not exact but close enough. Diving EAN32 on my Suunto got me very close to her Oceanic air profile...although she could still stay down longer than me diving air at the end of the week! See the link below....page 3 was where I talked about it in detail a thread.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/co...rs/383345-cobra-2-100-vs-50-rgbm-setting.html

 

[buton]

So how mares compares with suunto, in your experience? because I haven't had any problems with with my puck regarding deco, I was on the flower Gardens trip diving nitrox 32 at 80 feet average in 7 dives, 5 in one day and two of next day.

Mares puck worked great.... I was thinking about buying a suunto but..... Not sure now...

 

[Chuckitall]

I work on a dive boat in Fla and almost every trip we have divers coming up usually alone because on their Sunntos. I personally have used a Sunnto several times on routine 2 tanks trips in 80 ft of water and have been in Deco halfway thru the 2nd dive. I know they still sell alot of Sunnto computers, but I can't tell you how many of our customers have sold their Sunntos. Yea it's a great computer, but not realistic on how most divers dive now. I dive Sherwood Wisdom 2's and make three deep dives a day and never had a problem.

 

[Kharon]

Why not just dive the Suunto agressively? Set the Nitrox for a higher level than you actually have. Problem solved.

 

[buton]

It would be a good idea if Someone with a pressure chamber take over this myth something like mythbusters...

Maybe a lds who deals oceanic ...

 

[RonR]

My Mares puck air uses a ssimilar RGBM algorithm to your suunto,but seems to get more time when I'm diving with suunto divers. Different # of compartments maybe. Sub gear also makes an air integrated that looks to be middle of the road conservative. I also have an older pelagic but I only use it for backup,In case my main one craps out for some reason.

Because computers say "RGBM" in the branding doesn't mean they are using the same level of conservatism. There is quite a lot of latitude in the algorithm. It doesn't have anything to do with the number of tissues, which are just mathematical abstractions, but with the decision as to how to set risk factors. The Atomic Aquatics Cobalt Dive Computer uses RGBM, but deliberately set to be in the middle of the road for conservatism, and to allow users set variables that alter the conservatism.

Ron

---------- Post Merged at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:55 PM ----------

I dive an Atomic Cobalt and my buddy dives a Cobra. When we are doing multiple dives, his is a lot more conservative than mine. Several times he has even had a deco obligation when I don't. He now owns a Cobalt. The digital compass in it also works very well.

As one of the original developers of the Cobalt design, thanks.

Conservatism in dive computers is hard to nail down, but differences tend to seem more extreme in shallower, longer dives, because we treat deco/ no deco as a binary function when in reality is is a gradually increasing slope, very gradually increasing at shallow depths. So on shallower dives even a slight divergence in the algorithm conservatism can translate into many minutes more or less of no-deco time. The same computers might show much less difference- in minutes of no-deco time- at deeper depths. That probably accounts for some of the subjective differences in experience of how conservative a particular computer is.

Ron

 

[Scared Silly]

I personally have wondered about the profiles that people dive who complain about their Suunto computers. Frankly I think they are diving crappy profiles and for that Suunto rightly whacks them. In two trips to Truk Lagoon, where we dove 4x a day with depths averaging 100+ feet per dive only once in a week did we see a deco obligation that surprised us. Yeah we cut the depth short and went from 70 to 40 for 10 minutes and it cleared. We puts around for a bit longer then went up. Still managed to aver about 50-60 per dive.

 

[RonR]

I personally have wondered about the profiles that people dive who complain about their Suunto computers. Frankly I think they are diving crappy profiles and for that Suunto rightly whacks them. In two trips to Truk Lagoon, where we dove 4x a day with depths averaging 100+ feet per dive only once in a week did we see a deco obligation that surprised us. Yeah we cut the depth short and went from 70 to 40 for 10 minutes and it cleared. We puts around for a bit longer then went up. Still managed to aver about 50-60 per dive.

It may not be "crappy profiles" as much as shallower, longer ones. Computers that show only a minute or two difference on a deep dive might diverge by many minutes on a shallow one. What you don't see is that one is "almost" in deco, and the other is "barely" in deco. They may not be, in mathematical terms, very far apart at all, but because they treat deco/ no-deco and a binary switch, one seems much more conservative. If it were displayed in analog terms, as say a % of risk, they might not seem very different.

That said, RGBM computers will penalize multi-day and repetitive diving, to try to hold down bubble formation, and that is a good thing for safety.

Ron

 

[fnfalman]

I personally prefer other brands over Suunto, but I wouldn't discourage others from owning Suunto computers just on the basis of the operating algorithm.

Like RonR already explained, just because a computer supposedly used a more "conservative" type of algorithm, it doesn't mean that the computer is "conservative". Many of these fancy computers nowadays that use RGBM or Bulhmann algorithsm also allow the divers to choose the level of conservatism as well.

Nonetheless, you dive with what you've got and don't worry about the rest of the group. If you don't like that, then change computers and dive tables. As for me personally, I prefer Haldanean/DSAT algorithsm but I don't push the NDL bottom times either. I'd return several minutes before my NDL is even reached. I'm getting up there with age and I prefer to be the old diver instead of bold diver.

So, my recommendation for people who want a more liberal algorithm then choose computers that are based on Haldanean/DSAT algorithms. Those computers are usually sold by Oceanic, Sherwood, Aeris, etc. I have the Aeris Elite T3 wireless air integrated computer that I'm very happy with. For when I want to go with a console, I'd break out the Sherwood Wisdom 2 air integrated computer.

 

[DiveNav]

It would be a good idea if Someone with a pressure chamber take over this myth something like mythbusters......

You might want to check out the comparison chart discussed in this article.
And you might want also to check out my article Fine Tuning a Decompression Algorithm

Alberto (aka eDiver)