Planning multi-level deco dive?

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That's crazy high for deco (like twice my usual deco SCR). Thankfully I haven't had to do such dives with anyone going through gas like that. What do you plan for the bottom portion of the dive where you're theoretically working harder (kicking around, taking photos/video, navigating, etc)?


Same, 20L. Keeps math simple for in your head calculations. Less things to remember and forgetting to carry the 7..... I like simple.

In reality for me, cold water in a dry suit with doubles and bottles, I sit around 16L on a 'bad day' kicking dive. Single tank in cold water, that drops.

Get to the tropics in 3mm or shorts, it cuts in half easy. Usually 8-11L on the bottom portions.

I have no problems with carrying too much gas for a dive, makes me feel warm and fuzzy if Murphy pays a visit.... Reading some of these thread topics/discussions on the forums however solidify it for me too ....


So 35 minutes for an AL80 of 50% to me is very reasonable.

Say scootering a dive, and not noticing a bubbling 1st stage (bad me for not looking) because my teammate didn't close the valve the whole way on his last flow check. Finding it out at our gas switch, we know we most likely will have enough gas to share a full AL80 to complete all the planned deco for both of us.... When planning on 1/3 'reserve' and consumption at 20L.

_R
 
That sounds like an assumption that I wouldn't discuss the dive plan and agree on it with whoever I end up buddied with. And that would be a false assumption. I would absolutely make sure my buddy is aware of what I'm carrying and is also diving to be self-sufficient.

Planning to be self-sufficient may be limiting on dive time. But, I would rather have that than put so much faith in someone I don't know. Hopefully, whoever I'm diving with will feel the same way. Someone who is willing to trust me with their contingency gas without even knowing me seems like someone I should be wary of diving with in the first place.

As far as following my training, I am following it. My training was to either plan to have enough back gas to deco on OR carry enough deco gas for me and my buddy and have my buddy do the same. In this case, I'm choosing to go with the former.

The only other option is to get someone I know and trust to come along as my buddy. And that is not feasible for this trip.
How much discussion on the boat will change the size of the cylinders or the composition of the gas inside? If your buddy has twin 100s of 18/35 and an 80 of whatever (both sensible choices) then he is going to need you to do your part and back up his deco gas. Gas matching was in your training.

On top of that, you need to trust your buddy. What happens when only in the stops you discover he can't stay still, is continually bashing into you and bouncing up and down by 2m? Or he was really into that bit down at 160 and you are 10 minutes late leaving the bottom?

If you were to have an issue and he'd not seen your kit until the day?

What thought will have gone into the risks you might take for each other? Does he have a family? If you hare in serious trouble will he try or just send you up on a bag?

It sounds to me that this trip does not work as you do not have a buddy. Research hiring a DM, talk to them up front about the plan, agree gasses etc.

And, really, how likely is it that either of us will actually lose our deco gas? Assuming we don't, it just means having maybe a 30 - 45 minute dive (depending on the whole multi-level thing) with probably 30 minutes or less of deco. And a solid plan in place for if either of us DOES lose our deco gas.

Much of dive planning is for events that will never happen. The idea is to make sure those events, unlikely as they are, will not hurt anyone.

Deco'ing out on back gas for an hour or more is not a solid plan. Wasn't there some bit about limiting factors? Often the limiting factor is the consumables, but it can be your bladder, boredom/paranoia threshold or the cold.

TBH, you should like you are trying to justify a dive you should not do:

1 - no buddy
2 - wrong kit (40 isn't enough)
3 - not an ideal time of year
4 - possibly too big a jump, especially given 1-3

Getting a decent buddy for these dives is hard, mine has been off cycling all year so I haven't done anything especially challenging recently. There are only so many people I trust for these dives. The concequences of it going wrong are serious.
 
FWIW,
I think that your choice of back gas is incorrect for this " bounce to 160 " to take a look. You have the time between now and turkey day to get in the pool, or get in a quarry and handle more than 1 bottle. This dive plan screams for a stage for your deep quick look, and back gas that is useable for the tower starting at 130' up to 85'. A al 80 filled with 21/20 would get you in for a look deep, switch to back gas 32/20 at the depth that you feel safe, and deco on whatever you choose. Doing deco on deep mix sucks, so why plan on it? A switch to a higher mix will do wonders for your bottom time while limiting your exposure to total deco as off gassing will start when you make your first gas switch on your ascent. The other thing to note about dive planning for deco is your run time. You need to tell the mate what your RT is and do not deviate. How else will they know if you are overdue?

I am a stroke and this advice may kill you or do you harm.

My other set of hp 100's are back with a fresh hydro and vip. Valves were sonic cleaned and rebuilt. Send me a PM if you have any interest in them. I will make you a sweetheart deal on all the tanks I have left and everything else in the scuba shed. Say $550.00

Eric

What would you do if you have an regulator failure at 160 feet? Will you use your backgas at po2 of 1.9?


Ontopic:
I wouldn't do the dive at all. It Would be a deep dive with trimix or a shallow dive with ean32. (Or two dives) But I wouldn't stay most of the dive at less than 100 feet when using trimix. That is a waste of helium for me.
 
Stuartv - The plan looks pretty good to me.
..
I would highly resist complicating the dive with lots of extra gear. My only comment on the plan is why GF 50/85? More often it is GF 30/85 which will have a little less bubble stress.

GF 50/85 is the result of these things: Watching the presentation by Simon Mitchell that was posted in the thread about Decompression Controversies. Given what GF actually are, it has never really made much sense to me to use such a low GF Lo as most people use. You're trying to keep your tissue pressure gradient below 30% of the M-value at your first deco stop? Why so low? 50 still seems low, actually, but 50/85 is what I have adopted as my standard settings for easy, low stress dives. Which brings me to my second point. This dive is expected to be warm water with good viz and an easy ascent (given the superstructure and anchor chain I'll have to ascend on). If, for example, it were cold and low viz and a free ascent, I would use more conservative settings. I add that the warm will be warm (by my standards) but I would still do the dive in my drysuit.

Since you mentioned 21/20, I assume you're Trimix certified?

I will have my Helitrox cert by the time of this dive. So, no on Trimix. And thus why I will not have any training on handling multiple deco bottles. I talked to my tech instructor yesterday and he was firmly against me attempting to use multiple deco bottles until I get proper training on that. But, he said he thinks it's fine to plan to use a single AL80 for deco gas.

It sounds to me that this trip does not work as you do not have a buddy.

...

Deco'ing out on back gas for an hour or more is not a solid plan. Wasn't there some bit about limiting factors? Often the limiting factor is the consumables, but it can be your bladder, boredom/paranoia threshold or the cold.

TBH, you should like you are trying to justify a dive you should not do:

1 - no buddy
2 - wrong kit (40 isn't enough)
3 - not an ideal time of year
4 - possibly too big a jump, especially given 1-3

So, perhaps I should just plan to do it solo? I will have my SDI Solo Cert in about 3 weeks. That cert is not for tech dives. But, between my tech training and having formal training for solo diving of any type, I would feel comfortable doing it solo. I've already done a number of wreck dives as part of a photo/video contest where I may as well have been diving solo. I had two buddies that were mostly off doing their own thing anyway.

A 40 may not be enough (though I think it is, with the right dive plan), but I will carry an 80, if that is what is needed.

I don't see what difference the time of year makes. I will dive in a dry suit. Conditions could be too rough to dive any time of the year. If I plan to dive solo, then the time of year making it hard to find a buddy is moot, so what difference does the time of year make?

I've been to 160' before (on EAN23). And that was a dark, low viz, somewhat cold dive. The "jumps" here are (possibly) carrying an 80 instead of a 40, and being solo. To offset that, I would have some Helium to keep my head more clear, and the water would be warm (and me in a dry suit) and better viz. Is that really "too much"?

Oh, and regarding my bladder and boredom threshold: I am a very experienced long distance motorcycle rider. I am a member of the Iron Butt Association, which is a real thing and you can only become a member by having a certified completion of a qualifying endurance ride. My longest single ride so far is 1100 miles straight through, in 21 hours (from Tallahassee, FL, to Sonora, TX). I have a lot of experience with being cold and sedentary, holding my bladder, and occupying myself with mental gymnastics.

I'm not trying to justify a dive I should not do. I am trying to work out a plan for a dive so that I will be safe. If that requires a relatively short bottom time and relatively short deco plan, so be it. I certainly don't mind being conservative in that way in the planning. But, "don't do it at all" is a bit too conservative, I think.
 
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Since you might be breathing a high density gas at 48m/160', I recommend also studying this presentation by Simon Mitchell (Work of Breathing & CO2 Retention):
 
New gear, limited experience, solo, on air at 40+m, does not sound prudent.
 
New gear, limited experience, solo, on air at 40+m, does not sound prudent.
He is going to use mild trimix. 21/20 so not as awful as air but that is about the only plus.

Doesn't the SDI Solo book say, no deco diving, no pinnacle dives?

It sounds to me that your main need is a local buddy who wants to do similar dives to you. I know it is disappointing. Setting a goal is good but you need a plan to reach the goal. All the kit and training are worth nothing if you need a buddy and do not have one. You are a member of some sort of a club. Find an appropriate person there, get them to the right level of skill and go diving.
 
He is going to use mild trimix. 21/20 so not as awful as air but that is about the only plus.
. . .
Well 21/20 mix yields approximately an END of 36m/120', and a gas density over 5 g/liter at 48m/160' -approaching that critical value of 6 g/liter in Simon Mitchell's video presentation on Work of Breathing/Gas Density above: As long as you don't physically over exert yourself (like fin kicking into a stiff current) into exhaustion dyspnea & CO2 retention/Hypercapnia, you should be ok.

However, any indication of heavy breathing & the start of the panicky feeling "dark narc" CO2 cycle -I would abort the dive at deep depth and ascend to the shallows (i.e. Top of Oriskany's Island & Bridge Superstructure).
 
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Stuartv,

Also be advised that there can be current on the O. I did one dive where my baby scooter basically just kept me even with the current. If you run into that, not only will it affect the viz, but it will also impact how you conduct your dive. I had to hand pull along the flight deck and stay slightly below it on the leeward side of the hull to avoid the current. Wasn't a great day to do a bow dive either since the current was blowing stern to bow. This was on a nice summer day with calm waters. Deco on the jon line was harder too because I had to fight current pulling myself back in to move up the ascent line.

Just an FYI for planning purposes.

Enjoy the dive. The O is a great ship to get some time on. Nice and clean with lots of wildlife.
 
I will have my Helitrox cert by the time of this dive. So, no on Trimix. And thus why I will not have any training on handling multiple deco bottles. I talked to my tech instructor yesterday and he was firmly against me attempting to use multiple deco bottles until I get proper training on that. But, he said he thinks it's fine to plan to use a single AL80 for deco gas.


Stop worrying now about this dive. Do the training. Bring up this question during the training at appropriate times during the class work and how to handle it (along with GF, deco gas choices, bottom mix choices, instructors real life dives of this nature, etc).

After you do complete the course, do some dives and then worry about doing this dive.


_R
 
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