Placement of Octo (possible Alternative?)

[The Chairman]

over a thousand conjectures. You made many conjectures how it could not work... it worked in spite of all you said. If I am in an Open Water situation way under my NDL, then there are no problems that I just can't handle. For example... IF my inflator valve bites the big one, then my dive is over. IF one of my regs go down the tubes, then my dive is over. The chances of my primary second stage AND the inflator hose going out to lunch simultaneously are zilch to none. I would probably be more prone to a jellyfish attack in my favorite spring. It only takes ONE DATA POINT to destroy a grand hypothesis.

But hey, I dive the infamous Bungeed Wings of Death too...

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
1. They're unreliable.
2. They cause difficultly in controlling buoyancy.
3. They're hard to service.
4. They don't breathe well.
5. They are not reconfigurable underwater.
6. If you have an LP hose failure, you lose both your BC inflator and your backup reg simultaneously.
7. They make it hard to move your head around.
8. The inflator should be tucked close to your body and secured to you, not left drifting away. If you keep the inflator properly secured, it'll be next to impossible to use an integrated backup reg.

Warren,
Methinks thou dost protest too much...
(1) Reliability - I assume you have a cite for this? My experience is that I see more problems with regular second stages [especially high performance ones] than with integrated ones.
(2) Difficult buoyancy control - Huh? Air in... air out... works great whether you're holding the hose or breathing it - what's the problem?
(3) Service - Sorry, I don't think so. At least they're no problem for me...
(4) They don't breathe well - maybe it's 'cause I started out a few decades ago, but I have both an Air2 and an AirSource and both breathe just fine, thank you.
(5) Not reconfigurable - so? I don't think anyone's proposing their use in overhead environments... They *are* a bad idea there.
(6) If you lose your LP inflator hose, you lose your backup reg. True.. dive over.. but if you have both a low pressure inflator and an octopus you have two hose failure possibilities, either one of which will end the dive - so which is better?
(7) Restricted head movement - True
(8) If you keep the inflator properly secured it'll be next to impossible to use - Huh? I do, and it's no problem whatsoever to pull it free of the velcro tabs for unrestricted use. None.
------------------------
As one who dives all sorts of recreational dives on up to and including caving, I find the integrated safe second/power inflator my rig of choice for open water no-staged-deco no-overheads diving. I am willing to accept the minor restrictions in head movement in the unlikely event I'd ever have to use my second in exchange for the convenience of one less hose and one less device to manage on my fun dives. The rest of Warren's points I find without merit for me.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by TexasMike
While integrated octos might work for some folk's type of diving, it doesn't suit mine.

Now there's a good reason to not use an integrated reg.
Rick

 

[VTWarrenG]

Rick,

Hey, 2 for 8 between you and me ain't bad.

- Warren

 

[Se7en]

Going sideways here... but how many people have ever actually HAD to use a octo? As opposed to testing it, or during a course?

I've had to use mine twice... both times because it was trickling / free flowing air and I'd prefer to breath the air than watch it leave. But that was both with rental gear, since I got my own regs, it's not been a problem.

In the last 12 years, I don't remember talking to anyone who has had either a 2nd stage failure that was not a freeflow, or had to help out an out of air diver. I've offered mine during a stop to a diver who was lowish (30 bar), but it was refused as the diver was about to surface anyway, and I had a couple of minutes to go.

Actually - I just realised what I do use it for - liftbags or DSMB. Hmmm - I suppose it is easier to use than swapping to a combined unit, or removing my primary from my mouth.

Oh - scumballs can work OK, if you get one which just fits your mouthpiece. Mine does not fall out - it required a reasonable amount of force to dislodge.

Mike

 

[Drew Sailbum]

orginally posted by Se7en
Going sideways here... but how many people have ever actually HAD to use a octo? As opposed to testing it, or during a course?

Had to once. I donated my primary and used my integrated octo. It worked fine.

Learned the hard way that just because the Russian diver nods his head at the appropriate times during the briefing, it does not mean that he understands English. Apparently, "Signal half tank at 100bar and we'll turn around." has a very different meaning in Russian.

The guide signalled for an air check, Russian dude signalled ok, and I saw his gauge reading 30 bar. Up we went, but he ran out before reaching the surface. I was already on my octo, and held out my primary for him.


I guess this makes two data points.

 

[Se7en]

Hmmm - I'd venture that the problem perhaps should have been solved earlier than requiring an octo (Although it would have been hard to explain "I don't want to dive with you becuase you don't understand the briefing' to someone who didn't speak english...)- but I guess that's why we have these redundant systems.

For the times when the 'should have' doesn't.

What was the expression on the guys face when he ran out of air?

Mike

 

[The Chairman]

that I don't have a clue about! And I say that being my major in college was in fact Russian. I did learn quite a bit about automotive terms from my dealings with a few, like "tummi" means tires and such. I guess I could ask "Gdye moria?" Where's the sea? But I would have known what questions to ask to MAKE sure he understood... skazheetye mnye pa-angleeski shto ohn skazal ... Tell me what he said in English. Of course without the cyrillic alphabet, you can't get the full impact. I guess I need to make up a list of diving verbs and nouns that I would need if/when I ever get to go there.

 

[SDAnderson]

About those integrated alternate second stages…

Danglies. It won’t matter if you’re diving with an Apeks ATX200 as an alternate, if you’ve spent six months dragging the thing across the coral and through the sand, it cannot be considered to be reliable. An Air2 (or similar) won’t allow even the doofiest newbie to let it dangle enough to be damaged. Then there’s the streamlining issue – even if you leave your inflator dangling, it’s less of a drag than a second hanging in the current. Scumballs? Now those things are a joke.

Serviceability. Does anyone charge less to service a G250 than an Air2? Nobody in my neck of the woods gives breaks for easy service – that’s for sure. Unless you’re performing your own service, serviceability is a relatively theoretical issue for most divers.

Emergency. With the trend towards donating the primary second, knowing instantly and instinctively where the alternate second is located becomes critical. Since push-button divers usually have their fingers on their inflators, it isn’t much of a search to find their alternate if it’s integrated.

Reliability. My Air2 is several years old and it doesn’t get used very often, but I have yet to have a single problem with it. In fact, it free-flows less often than any of my other regulators, including a TX50, a TX100, a pair of G250’s, etc.

The integrated alternates aren’t perfect, but they represent a viable solution (there may be other solutions, but that’s not the point) to a number of problems for divers that don’t give a puffers breeze about gear fiddaddlin and just want to hop into the warm water a couple of times a year and make faces at the fishies. We all make compromises in order to enjoy diving (remember – this is a DANGEROUS sport) so it’s really just a question of what and how much, not whether.

Is it an insult to tell a diver that he's all wet?

 

[RRDAVE]

thanks group for the support I'm not a tech diver and don't think I ever will be. If and when I start cave diving will think about a differant arangment but for now I'm very happy with my "AIR SOURCE" RRdave