Pit bull coming at me, owner screaming "Vicious NO"

[H2Andy]

"veritable festival of strokery" ...whose line is that anyway? I thought that was a Doc-ism.

you got it eyebrow

i stole it

 

[aquaoren]

Oren,

I don't intend to quarrel with your analysis of the extent, real or imagined, to which any particular breed is inherently 'vicious' or not. It isn't my field of expertise. I'm all about empirical validity, and the studies you cite tend to support your argument.

But on a personal note, I'd ask you to read your quote above one more time.

I do know a bit about guns, and they do tend to fall into my field of expertise. I wouldn't necessarily "have expected more knowledge from someone who works in the field of Veterinary Medicine" regarding handguns - because they likely are not YOUR field of expertise. But I WOULD have expected better from you than the same untruths and media-tarnished misinformation that you referred to with regard to handguns.

An incompetent performance is an incompetent performance in any field of endeavor.

"Gun Control" - that is, real gun control - means being able to hit what you aim at.

If you don't know what you're doing in the field of animal husbandry or veterinary medicine I suspect you could cause grave collateral damage. If you don't know what you're doing with a handgun, the same is likely true.

But if you know what you're doing in your field I suspect you are safer and more proficient at it than the average tyro thrust suddenly and unprepared into a situation. The same goes for using handguns.

It is all well and good to debate in an abstract and theoretical manner on how various breeds ought to behave under empirically-based conditions.

It is a different thing when one is running at you snarling and intent on attack.

Whatever may be the case in an academic debate, when under attack I suggest that someone who knows what they are doing with a handgun and has one available is in a far better position to respond constructively than someone who can after the fact analyze in learned and theoretical verbiage regarding why the animal should or shouldn't have behaved as it did.

I don't immediately care whether the breed that is attacking me ought to behave that way or not, nor whether it was nature or nurture or abuse that caused it to attack me. I am more interested in not allowing it to continue attacking me.

A well-trained and adept marksman ought to be able to end the attack expeditiously.

Lets not any of us fall victim to speaking strongly about things we know little of.

Among other things it tends to breed arguments based on - let me see, how did you put it? "anecdotal evidence and BS"?

Doc, I grew up in Israel. You may not exactly know what all my fields of expertise could be.
While I agree with you that a skilled shooter could have a chance, I think that the majority of people carrying guns vastly overestimate their skills.
A Pitt Bull isn't a big target but they move damn quickly when motivated. Are you 100% sure you could hit it with children in the background like in this case? Would you be willing to bet your freedom on it? Do you really think that most gun carriers could do as good as you?
IMHO, due to some anecdotal experience , If you're not 100% sure you can and should use your gun, don't pull it out. It may make an already bad situation worse. Having commone sense, situational awareness and knowing how to bahave in order not to escalate a situation or how to avoid confrontation is a much more useful skill that being a good shooter.
Andy mentioned something intersting before. He said that he, as a responsible gun owner, refuses to be lumped together with thugs and other irresponsible gun owner and Catherine immediatly agreed with him.
Interesting thing though that she does exactly the same with all Pitt Bull owner.

 

[Cacia]

yea, well I don't mind being unintelligent sometimes! I have a great life and the way I think has served me and kept me alive very well. My beef is all the intellects out there who have had their instincts totally estinguished .....some of you are overly domesticated, in my view. look it is not personal, I promise.

I have heard the speech over and over about how you should not leave a small child alone with ANY breed. I don't want to live that way. For some mysterious reason, I have the uncanny, uneducated ability to choose animals that are trustworthy with my kids. I know the party line speech and I am rejecting it. I don't buy it, I think it may be "educated" and still be stupid.

and your 100% argument above?....where to get this 100% way of living? Tell me, you must rule out a lot of options for yourself with that one. Just not logical, I am afraid.

I understand what you are saying about my guns/Pit Bull argument. You don't get it that I am not for banning guns or Pit Bulls! I believe individual freedom delivers me the best in life. I have decided NO to Pit Bulls and yes to guns, based on my particulars. I don't want EVERYONE to get a gun, I just want to have one. I am not about fair. I am about choosing what is optimal for me. That is why once I understand the consequences of breaking a law, or a rule and if that is acceptable, break it anyway if it suits me. At the very least I am honest about that.

And I was serious about my "it is in my genetics" comment. I read the info about rolling up in a little ball, etc. I would rather die than do that, it is against my inherent nature.
My instincts tell me to keep my baby away from a Pit Bull. I listen to instinct and radar from within and do not feel compelled to square it with what is found on google. If people call me unintelligent, ...good...so far it's working pretty well. I consider myself educated but I worship the bounty of conventional wisdom found in the street.

 

[Cacia]

No! Here is where you need help, Oren:

If you're not 100% sure you can and should use your gun, don't pull it out

I am going to pull it if have a 51 % chance of saving myself, in my own estimation. 100%?? I cannot grasp this. I honestly believe rules are desperately needed by people who cannot grasp this. Please, don't ever get a gun

 

[H2Andy]

I read the info about rolling up in a little ball, etc. I
would rather die than do that, it is against my inherent nature.

C, how do you think it's been determined that's the best strategy?

not by reading books or exchanging emails, but by learning from previous
attacks.

but if you'd rather die than learn from the previous experience of others, hey,
like you said, that's your right

 

[aquaoren]

Catherine. Most bite victims are children and most of them got bit by a dog they knew, most often, their own dog. Yes, australian Shepherds killed people.
These are facts. You may not trust it and continue leaving your children unsupervised. You are endangaring your children as most of the children got bit by a dog that bit for the first time. You probably know the old phrase: "Oh, he has never done it before"
While I love animals (dogs especially) and made them part of my life and profession, I'm smart enough to know that you can NEVER completely trust an animal.

Akita; Australian Shepherd; Boxer; Bulldog; Bullmastiff; Chesapeake Bay Retriever; Chow Chow; Cocker Spaniel; Collie; Coonhound; Dachshund, Doberman; Golden Retriever; Great Dane; Hound-"type" (may include crossbreeds); Husky; Japanese Hunting Dog; Labrador Retriever; Lhasa Apso, Malamute; Mastiff; Mixed-breed (where dog was known to be a mixed-breed, does not include dogs whose breed was not known); Newfoundland; Pit bull "type" (may include crosses or misidentified individuals); Pomeranian, Rhodesian Ridgeback; Rottweiler; German Shepherd Dog; Saint Bernard; Sheepdog; Sled-"type" (may include crossbreeds); Terrier-"type" (may include crossbreeds); West Highland White Terrier; Wolf/Dog hybrid, Yorkshire Terrier.

One thing is common to this list of breeds-They all killed at least 1 human in the last 20 years.

Not sure what exactly you meant with the 100% statement above but the people who know me are puzzeled by how I live my life to the fullest without any inhibition while being in an age that I should have grown up already.

 

[Cacia]

There are many people who have had statistics but cannot apply them in a useful way in real life. the fact that you would not pull a gun unless your odds were 100%, is not that complicated of a concept here.

C, how do you think it's been determined that's the best strategy?

sometimes, I think the passivists are conspiring.

 

[aquaoren]

No! Here is where you need help, Oren:



I am going to pull it if have a 51 % chance of saving myself, in my own estimation. 100%?? I cannot grasp this. I honestly believe rules are desperately needed by people who cannot grasp this. Please, don't ever get a gun

Catherine, it's not your genetics. It's your education, society and the environment you were brought up in.
Wouldn't you think that being able to avoid a situation where you had to use your weapon would be better? Or being able to defuse a situation that could escalate?
With your approach, you don't give such a solution a chance and instead going directly to confrontation. Not very street smart solution if you'd ask me but hell, what do I know.
Heck, seeing how you are eager to shoot at something, I have my serious doubts about your suitibility to be classified as a responsable gun owner.
You have a very selective reading too. I said:

If you're not 100% sure you can and should use your gun, don't pull it out.

What is difficult to understand about being able to use and sure that a gun is the best option in a specific case? Emphasis on SHOULD. I didn't talk about any odds.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I would not leave any child unsupervised with any dog. Period. Recommending anything else is irresponsible.
Supervised? I would hesitate less leaving a child with a Pitt Bull than with any Terrier or Shepherd.
While, I respect your professional experience, after more than 10 years being in the profession, 4 years of them in a referral clinic for surgery and have spent thousands in continuing education in the field of behaviour, I think I can allow me an opinion about your statements.
Over 90% of bite wounds I've treated were caused by other dogs than Pitt Bulls. Mixed breed dogs, Sheppards (mostly German), Labs and Coocker Spaniels were the culprits in most cases.
Concerning the Breed Ban Laws. Yes, the politician are pulling those out of their *sses because people are terrified because they saw something on the TV or read it in the newspaper and they think they can score points with them toward the next election. Best example is, as I mentioned, the New Mexico politician who got mauled by his Boxer and 2 Bulldogs. Wouldn't you take a Boxer anyday? I love Boxers, had one as a child, great dogs. My bit my father in the arm while he was playing with me. He thought he had to defend me.
Genetics, huh? Well, my brother is a biologist-geneticist. My wife (A veterinarian as well) does a Residency at the University Of Guelph in the field of small animal reproduction. I think the stand of my knowledge is fairly up to date.

Oren, what's your deal with Shepherds? Like I said in a previous post, I have a 130lb/59kg German Shepherd who is kind and loving and wouldn't hurt anything without being provoked. My 10lb/4.5kg cat plays with him and even ends up hurting him sometimes.

... it's not your genetics. It's your education, society and the environment you were brought up in...

Have you considered that this can apply to animals, too? Couldn't the behavior be a result of the training, upbringing, and environment of the animal?

 

[Cacia]

Ok, Oren. tell me why my dog herds, all day long. He has never seen a sheep.
I am a very responsible gun owner and grew up at the range in Quantico. My dad taught firearms under Hoover and made us shoot way more than we ever wanted to. In fact, I am a responsible person in general and have never even had a moving violation. The plan to have kids and never leave them alone with the dog...I just don't know what to say.
My guns are locked in a safe. I don't need them in Hawaii. I did in LA.

..Take the stat (hope I get it right) about the leading cause of death for a pregnant woman is to be killed by her SO....I am pretty sure about navigating around that one too. just because it is a statistical probability, doesn't mean I should automatically apply it to my circumstances. I guess I would call it, multi-factorial processing! It is what makes us better thinkers than a computer program, in the grand scheme of things.