Pit bull coming at me, owner screaming "Vicious NO"

[Doc Intrepid]

Doc, I grew up in Israel. You may not exactly know what all my fields of expertise could be.

Oren, apart from the fact that you appear to be well educated with respect to various breeds of dogs, I do not exactly know what any of your other fields of expertise could be. I was not trying to be even slightly condescending. But all things are relative - based on your paradigm it seemed a pretty good bet that you aren't training military and law enforcement SWAT teams, which is what I spent years doing. But I could be mistaken!

While I agree with you that a skilled shooter could have a chance, I think that the majority of people carrying guns vastly overestimate their skills. A Pitt Bull isn't a big target but they move damn quickly when motivated. Are you 100% sure you could hit it with children in the background like in this case? Would you be willing to bet your freedom on it? Do you really think that most gun carriers could do as good as you? IMHO, due to some anecdotal experience , If you're not 100% sure you can and should use your gun, don't pull it out. It may make an already bad situation worse....

We've already established that we're referring to individuals who are in fact proficient. No one is advocating a "spray and pray" protocol against attacking dogs.

My point is simple:

Bad things occasionally happen. When they do, survival often corellates directly with options...the more options you have, the better your chances of survival.

Ber was suddenly presented with a situation where she was attacked by a dog named, paradoxically, "Vicious". Fortunately for Ber the owner deterred the attack via the unorthodox tactic of sitting on it (the mind boggles...)

Had the dog not been deterred, however, it is likely that Ber may have suffered some damage. It is equally likely that others in a similar situation would also suffer damage - a recent case in California comes to mind in which an adult female was killed...you may be better acquainted with the details than I am.

In situations where there is a sudden, imminent, inescapable threat to limb and potentially life, my argument is that a proficient shooter simply has more options available to them, and hence a greater chance of survival, than an unarmed individual who is left attempting to insert a wristguard into the attacking dog's mouth (while being taken to the ground, etc. etc.) An attacking pit bull is unlikely to be dissuaded by staring it down or insisting firmly that it cease and desist. At the moment a potentially fatal attack commences, abstract debate regarding whether it should have occurred or not becomes immaterial. The option of armed response beats having no option at all.

That is my only point.

From my perspective it is a sad comment that your government has seen fit to protect Canadian citizens from themselves by their immensely expensive and functionally useless social experiment. According to the latest data published by your government, it would appear that armed robberies still occur in Canada. Those who are disinclined to obey the law never troubled to heed it in the first place, ergo Canada today is a state where individuals who formerly disregarded the law continue to do so - running around armed. Those they might encounter; the law-abiding disarmed, now are left defenseless against the predators. It would seem that your defensive options have been significantly reduced. Your survival now depends upon prayer to a benevolent deity that you are not one of the unfortunates who happen to encounter one of the predators.

Humans or canines.....

 

[dpbishop]

Actually, Pit Bulls are bred to not attack humans. When they are fought, which is a truly sick sport to my mind, the handlers are in the pit with them, so you want a dog that will concentrate on the other dog and ignore the humans. They are, however, intensely devoted to pleasing their master, and will be mean and nasty if they think that is what you want. I have three pits at home, which I inherited from my kids, and they think they are lap dogs. We had two grandchildren in the house from infancy to 6 years old and the most harm the dogs ever did was to pummel them with their tails because they were so happy to see them. We also have cats, and if they sneak into dog-town, the dogs go huddle up against the opposite wall and look at me as if to say " we're not bothering the cats, ok?"

I don't, however, let them be around other dogs. Pit bulls can be trained to co-exist with other dogs, I once had a pit, a rottwiler, a german shepard a a Bicon Frizee that got along great. With this group I have not been able to take the time it requires to train them to be with other dogs so my dogs never leave the yard. ( it's a big yard). I won't take them for walks even on a leash, because too many other dogs in my neighborhood run free and could initiate a fight. Responsible dog ownership means protecting your dog from danger and protecting society from your dog.

 

[Supernal]

From my perspective it is a sad comment that your government has seen fit to protect Canadian citizens from themselves by their immensely expensive and functionally useless social experiment. According to the latest data published by your government, it would appear that armed robberies still occur in Canada. Those who are disinclined to obey the law never troubled to heed it in the first place, ergo Canada today is a state where individuals who formerly disregarded the law continue to do so - running around armed. Those they might encounter; the law-abiding disarmed, now are left defenseless against the predators. It would seem that your defensive options have been significantly reduced. Your survival now depends upon prayer to a benevolent deity that you are not one of the unfortunates who happen to encounter one of the predators.

Humans or canines.....

Hmmm, have you heard of something called the police?

 

[Snowbear]

Hmmm, have you heard of something called the police?

How often do you suppose one is going to just happen to be on hand to intervene between the predator and it's prey at the time of the attack?

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Hmmm, have you heard of something called the police?

Of course I have. Those are the individuals who come along after an incident has occurred. They take down information, take photos, gather evidence, cart off the bodies, and begin the process of administrivia.

All of which is of little comfort to the dead, the raped, the beaten, the stalked, or the innocent bystanders who were collateral damage.

Never forget that the police appear AFTER the event has unfolded.

The event itself, however, is up to you to deal with as best you are able, at the moment it occurs.

 

[DiverBuoy]

are pit bulls really more dangerous than any other dog?

When I was a wee lad my father had a kennel for Dobermans exclusively. He bred them and trained them. They were pretty scary beasts, but so gentle and loving with family. In addition to all the dogs coming and going we also owned 2 ourselves. A black and tan all-world extreme alpha her name was Simba and the red dob's name was Baron (as in Red Baron) 2 years her junior and male.

My dad and I would take them walking every day, even though we had a massive yard and they received plenty of excercise throughout the day. He said it was to ensure the dogs remained acclimated to people, surroundings, so they could learn to cope with changing environments and not overreact. He was right, their familiarity with the neighborhood did reduce the FUD for them, they felt they owned the neighborhood though. We had a very nice young neighbor name Gary at the end of the block and he owned a pit bull.

Gary was at least 5 years older than me and we used to stand around talking, well more like arguing, about our dogs and their amazing feats all the time. My dog followed me everywhere (even had her 12 pups in my closet) she did whatever it took to be next to me with tenacious loyalty. I would brag to Gary how Simba could climb my walnut tree, with a running leap she only needed one paw to land on a step of my wooden ladder to get to the pit where the three primary limbs of the tree joined together. This placed her just a few feet below the bottom floor of my two story tree house. A tree house built one summer by my uncle in our 36-foot diameter base walnut tree. We would discover later it was a mere sappling when U.S. President George Washington was a wee tot, but that is another story I digress. Gary would taunt back aw that's nothing my pitbull can fly; he's been to the moon and back on a single breath of air ... <insert other impossible feat> yah yah whatever I'd laugh.

Anyway, my dad asks me one time to walk the dogs myself so I take these two large highly trained dogs for a walk around the block and of course I'm overwhelmed when conflict and choas breaks out as we round the final leg of our circle round the bend in front of Gary's house. Gary opens the door to come out apparently he didn't realize I was there, his dog burst past him and went straight for Baron's throat locks down and drops Baron to the ground. What happens next is a blur ... there is blood slinging and vicious growling, wimpering and dog appendages going all around in circles. Gary has no lawn only dirt and we are literally choking from the thick clouds of dust filling the air. The sounds are terrifying, and by this point my own crying is joining the chorus. My right hand is bleeding from where the leashes were ripped from my grasp against my best 9 year old effort to hold on. But almost as quickly as it started, suddenly all the terrifying ruckus abruptly ends. There is only whimpering.

Baron is breathing laboriously with a wheezing sound and is apparently the source of the whimper. Simba's mouth and teeth are filled with fur and blood. Despite her nasty appearance Simba seems preoccupied with licking Baron's throat in a nursing fashion. And there on the ground lay the shredded body of Gary's dog, a huge gash exposing the ribs, and some internal organs strewn and mangled this was all the detail of the gruesome and grizzly encounter that could be grasped because everything looked the same color - thick sticky brown dirt.

It was a very tramatic experience for me. I felt so deeply sad for everyone for the dogs, but especially for Gary he always seemed so confident and cocky, but he just lay on top of that unrecognizable corpse sobbing bitterly.

One strong emotion welled up in me, anger, I was pissed at my dad for not realizing how powerless I'd be to stop those two dogs if something went wrong and the sitation became volatile. A squad car stopped and the police interviewed everyone. My dad came running down apparenly another onlooker went to get him. Baron healed in about a week, Simba ne'er a scratch on her, looked as if she'd never been in battle. Gary never spoke to our family or me again he moved away not long after.

 

[ThatsSomeBadHatHarry]

Just to say something do add to the data. A pitbull was making lunges at one of the Vets i work with today. This dog was unapproachable. Vicious. The owner knew too. her claim was "we raised him just like our other dogs. He just gets this way around strangers. isn't that nice. just thought i'd throw that out there.

 

[ThatsSomeBadHatHarry]

Diverbuoy, thats a really powerful story. well written

 

[Doc Intrepid]

agreed.

 

[mania]

Well
I couldn't go through all these pages so forgive me if I'm repeating what was alredy said. Few my remarks:
1. Dogs are ANIMALS.
2. Every dog is a PREDATOR.

These are two things that should never be forgotten.
Years abo I have been breeding dogs proffesionally. Every dog is a killer because every dog needs to hunt to eat.
So as it was said here before - it's NEVER dog's fault. It's ALWAYS owner fault.
Because dogs are not toys. They have to be trained. And it's up to an owner how and what for he trained his/her dog.

And it's not true that some dogs are more aggresive or less. Dogs, like people and all mammals, have their character. Individual one.

Never be afraid of dog. They can smell fear and then they attack. If you want to stop an agressive dog - don't move, raise your hand and show him the palm. This is one of the best ways. They are scared of this gesture.

Mania