Pending changes for certifications required for JDC dives

[Jcp2]

Having mandatory AOW and nitrox would hopefully get slightly more experienced divers on the boats, if only for the addition of a few more instructed dives prior to diving in a current. Regular local divers can easily get another local buddy and learn the ropes through experience but vacation divers coming from quarry dives or moored dives would be wise to dive under some sort of professional guidance if they didn’t have a willing local buddy to learn from. Hiring a local guide or taking another certification course isn’t a money grab, it’s smart diving. Isn’t the whole OW certification is to dive within your experience and to expand your envelope of experience slowly and carefully? When I used to ski and snowboard as a vacation skier rather than a local every weekend skier, my first sessions were with an instructor to see where I was and what I could work on to get better and enjoy my time.

 

[Skeptic14]

I have dealt (as in purchased insurance from) every scuba diving liability insurance company in the USA except DAN, who entered the game as I was leaving. Not one ever required me to request a card UNLESS the dive was a technical dive, and then never for depth, only for gas provided.

It was never based on depth or equipment, only on the gas used. Now, I haven't had liability insurance since 2019, but I'd be willing to wager a small confectionary that there are no insurance requirements placed on the shop that require a card for depth.

Yes, it will.
The insurance companies are dropping dive boats left and right. Too much liability.
I can insure my boat for fishing charters for about $600 per year. It is over $4000 as a dive charter. This is a boat running less than 50 charters per year.
You have a heart attack on a fishing boat, if you live or die, it was still a heart attack. It happens on a dive and it is a diving accident and the family sues.
The insurance company dictates what is on the waivers, how they need to be presented, everything. If you don't follow their rules, they drop you. At this point, you don't have other options for coverage, we are down to a very small couple of underwriters that will even do it.
One of the questions is basically are you certified to do the planned dive? If you have an OW card and it is a 100' dive, you aren't and you can't do it.

It seems @Wookie 's experience is insurance companies are not directly specifying certs be required by operators in order to obtain insurance.

@Tracy it seems you have evidence of the contrary, where insurance underwriters are spelling out how and what certs must be checked by the operators?

I just checked a few of the operators along the Emerald Coast and nothing has changed regarding certs/requirements to sign-up for their charters where the depths are gauranteed to be > 60 feet. Something I'll keep an eye on out of curiousity though in case it changes.


That said... does the actual certification say for OW that diver's subsequent dives should be limited to a maximum of 60 feet until further training is acquired, or is that simply the limit during the open water certification process:

From PADI's website:

Phase 3: Open Water Dives​

You’ll learn to dive by diving to a maximum depth of 18 metres/60 feet. The open water course includes four open water dives in total, usually done over two days. With your instructor by your side, you’ll practice the skills you learned in confined water, and explore the underwater world.

And at least one operations interpretation of PADI's descriptions:

According to the PADI certifying agency, if you are doing your Open Water course and you are over 12 years old, you can dive to 18 meters/60 feet depth. If you are still a junior (from 10 to 12 years old), the maximum depth is 12 meters/40 feet.

It seems clear what the maximum depth limits are for PADI Open Water course, doesn´t it? So, why do so many people express doubts about them?
The truth is that these depth limits during courses are self-regulated by the World Recreational Scuba Training Council (WRSTC). This association sets the quality standards for dive training all over the world and sets minimums for each certification.
For that reason, no diver may exceed 18 meters/60 feet while taking the PADI Open Water Course. The diving centers that teach them are committed to this rule as a form of civil responsibility.
What happens when the diver has finished the course? At that time, he starts to gain experience. If a certified diver jumps into the water with a more experienced and knowledgeable diver, for example, a Divemaster or an Instructor; he could overpass the PADI Open Water depth limits. So, a novice diver gains skills and can gradually increase the depth.

However, gaining enough experience takes time and many dives. If you want to speed up the process to overpass the PADI Open Water depth limit, your best option is to get trained. Accept our advice and take the Advanced Open Water course. In it, you will acquire the necessary knowledge to descend to 30 meters/100 feet.
On the other hand, you should know that recreational divers are not allowed to go deeper than 40 meters/ 130 feet, and they must take a course that provides them the necessary skills to do that. We are talking about the PADI Deep Diver Specialty.

 

[Skeptic14]

Having mandatory AOW and nitrox would hopefully get slightly more experienced divers on the boats, if only for the addition of a few more instructed dives prior to diving in a current. Regular local divers can easily get another local buddy and learn the ropes through experience but vacation divers coming from quarry dives or moored dives would be wise to dive under some sort of professional guidance if they didn’t have a willing local buddy to learn from. Hiring a local guide or taking another certification course isn’t a money grab, it’s smart diving. Isn’t the whole OW certification is to dive within your experience and to expand your envelope of experience slowly and carefully? When I used to ski and snowboard as a vacation skier rather than a local every weekend skier, my first sessions were with an instructor to see where I was and what I could work on to get better and enjoy my time.

Having an AOW cert on top of an OW cert doesn't necessarily mean you have drift diving experience or any additional experience with SMB or holding a safety stop without mooring/anchor line though. And those seem like the more challenge aspects of diving WPB if you haven't experienced drift diving before, vs diving to 75' vs just 60', particulary if that's something you reguarly do.

Anyway, whether it's the Ins companies or the Ops themselves, if it's their rules it is what it is; Seems there is plenty of diving there at or less than 60' so not a big deal.

 

[Tracy]

It seems @Wookie 's experience is insurance companies are not directly specifying certs be required by operators in order to obtain insurance.

@Tracy it seems you have evidence of the contrary, where insurance underwriters are spelling out how and what certs must be checked by the operators?

The underwriters aren't divers, they are risk evaluators. The wording is along the lines of, the divers need to be certified for the dives being undertaken.
How you interpret that is up to you. How I interpret it is, if you aren't certified for the depth of the dive, you don't get to do the dive.
It isn't about skills, I was doing dives well beyond my certs for many years, it wasn't an issue. I was qualified, not certified. I had been trained and mentored.
Conception changed everything for dive boat insurance, and it keeps changing.
I was with a different underwriter last year, they dropped all dive boat insurance. My agent was able to find one underwriter that would take on a relatively new operation. The underwriter is based in the UK. The policy is written locally.
I am friends with most of the other boat operators in my area, most of them are with underwriters that will no longer write a dive boat policy. They are still able to stay on as they have never had a claim, others have had to change as different underwriters have dropped out. It is a tough market to be in. Stupid lawsuits are the reason, I wish I knew what the answer was.
Wookie getting out when he did and choosing to stay out makes him a bit of a genius in my eyes.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

Rulemaking criteria:

Is there a box that can be checked? XX Yes No

Is there a course that has a name that will make a panel of 12 people, uneducated & unsophisticated as to diving subject matter that will sound impressive? XX Yes No

Is the course a low bar (easy) for even the most basic diver? XX Yes No


"<<Choose pronoun>> was an ADVANCED diver, with ADVANCED dive training, not some inexperienced diver, so <<choose pronoun>> was exceptionally well qualified to do the dive my client planned and briefed. <<choose pronounn>> should have known better than to do something stupid since they were such an ADVANCED diver!!! So not my client's fault!"*

*Lawyer training limited to staying at a Holiday Inn Express once. Not an actual attorney.

 

[KevinG58]

In light of this, nitrox everywhere (on boats) sounds really good to me. I'd like the industry to not disappear.

I recall some boat, in Texas maybe, going all nitrox and seeing a significant drop in their incidents.

Bahamas Aggressor, has also gone nitrox only. I have no idea if incidents decreased.

 

[drrich2]

The wording is along the lines of, the divers need to be certified for the dives being undertaken.
How you interpret that is up to you.

I think this is a key point. Many people, especially longer-term divers, may tend to interpret that as an open water diver certification is a recreational scuba diving certification, with recreational diving covering depths down to 130 feet. That does not mean someone fresh out of OW training should immediately dive to those depths, anymore than a young drive who just got his driver's license ought to go drive in demanding congested urban road environments. He should get additional experience and grow his way into it. This is how things used to be.

For comparison, getting a driver's license (which if anything is a bigger issue since more people drive solo and accidents are more likely to kill other people) is, for non-commercial car and truck drivers (I'm not up on motorcycle requirements), largely a one license thing.

We don't start with a basic driver's license that covers the countryside and small towns, an intermediate license for somewhat congested areas in cities with populations up to 200,000, then an advanced driver's license for major metropolitan centers.

In post #381 of Master.........Really? @boulderjohn posted:

3. The Advanced Open Water certification was created by the Los Angeles County program in the mid 1960s to introduce divers to a variety of different aspects of diving in the hope that it would improve the low rate of diver retention. NAUI followed suit. PADI did not add AOW until later.

Notice that the course was not designed to certify people as safe to dive 100 feet (you can get the PADI AOW cert. without going nearly that deep, unless things have changed). It doesn't prove they've dove to 100 feet deep, much less that they've mastered the knowledge and skills involved and are safe to do so.

None of which changes the fact insurance operators can demand divers do most anything not illegal as a condition of operator coverage.

P.S.: It's interesting jumping thread to thread. One thread decried a Malta court finding of dive buddy liability thought to be ridiculous. Another on the Conception disaster brought up the issue the rec. diver community has been anti-government intervention but now some wish the government had 'done more' to prevent it. In this thread, liability risk-ridden operators have trouble finding insurance coverage and start requiring a certification not practically necessary, designed for or reliably serving the purpose, because it'd look good in a lawsuit.

 

[hehatemefrisbee]

In post #381 of Master.........Really? @boulderjohn posted:


Notice that the course was not designed to certify people as safe to dive 100 feet (you can get the PADI AOW cert. without going nearly that deep, unless things have changed). It doesn't prove they've dove to 100 feet deep, much less that they've mastered the knowledge and skills involved and are safe to do so.

When I did my AOW with dressel in Dominican in 2021 the DM purposely took me to 100 on a wreck to check off that box.

 

[Cthippo]

Here is a question for you old timers who have been around since the stone age...

When did recreational diving start being perceived as a safe sport?

Talking to folks who were doing this in the 70s, 80s, and 90s it was understood that every dive could kill you, that if you did this long enough it probably would kill you, and that you could tell someone's level of experience by how many friends they had lost diving.

Somewhere along the line that changed, and the perception and expectation became that diving was a safe sport and that you could do it indefinitely without anything going wrong. Therefore when something does go wrong and someone dies, someone must be responsible. What we are seeing now is the side effect of that change in perception.

I find it interesting that tech diving hasn't had these problems, and I would argue that it is specifically because they kill so many people relative to the size of the community. The perception is still that tech diving is dangerous and will probably kill you and so when that happens no one feels the need to sue.

Improvements in safety in rec diving are great, but they come with unintended consequences.

Also, RE: The Conception, that was a marine incident, not specifically a dive incident. How much of the change in the insurance environment is specific to diving versus small, high occupancy boats, regardless of what they are doing?

 

[Wookie]

Also, RE: The Conception, that was a marine incident, not specifically a dive incident. How much of the change in the insurance environment is specific to diving versus small, high occupancy boats, regardless of what they are doing?

I don’t have much real insight into the insurance business, but when a dive shop/boat/instructor gets sued, it’s going to be a settlement/award for the limit of liability, or even I’d the defendant wins, it’s going to cost most of that million to defend. Regardless of how any Conception lawsuit turns out, the insurance company is (probably) only on the hook for a million in defense and a million is award. Anything more than that, the ship owner better have well isolated their personal treasure from their business treasure. That means not using the company credit card to put gas in the personal pickup, and not using the shop truck to haul firewood to the cabin at Heavenly.

Owl Underwriting is one of the larger insurers of North American dive boats. They left the West Coast market years ago because the west coast boats generally felt that they were merely a taxi and not responsible for the divers. It’s a common belief on the west coast. That information was direct from the broker at Owl (Owl’s predecessor, actually). I have no idea who wrote the policy for Conception, or if Owl actually dumped the West Coast liveaboards or not.

But you are correct that this was a maritime accident and not a diving accident. I have no idea how this will play out, but it’s likely that the underwriter is only on the hook for a million.