Passed hydro, failed vis-galvanized

[JamesBon92007]

A PSI inspector has zero authority to condemn (XXXX out the serial number) a cylinder without explicit notification by the owner. Without doing so is destruction of private property as the cylinder is now illegal to fill and would make you liable for a replacing the cylinder. The reason being is that a scuba vis is an industry inspection. So unless notification is given to condemn which includes XXX out the DOT markings you do not want to do it. .

A lot of this is not clear to me. Here's what the Luxfer Visual Inspection Guide says:

Inspect all cylinder threads for cracking with and without a dental mirror and light.
See PHOTOS 6 - 9. In addition to a visual inspection using the naked eye, the use of a
Non-destructive Testing (NDT)G device, such as Visual PlusB&C is also recommended to
detect thread cracks.
Remove the O-ring. Inspect the O-ring gland and cylinder faceF5/6 for cracking.
CONDEMN all cylinders that show evidence of cracking in more than one continuous
full thread. Contact Luxfer7 with this information and findings.
CONDEMN all cylinders with O-ring gland or face cracks. Contact Luxfer7 with
this information and findings.
CONDEMN all cylinders with O-ring gland or face damage.
RETURN TO SERVICE all cylinders with tool stop marksP10 on otherwise
acceptable threads, with acceptable glands and faces.
Inspect cylinder threads near the bottom of the threads, with a dental mirror and
light8 for folds and valleys (for visual illustrations, see FIGURES 6 - 8 and PHOTOS
14 - 17) that enter into the thread area.
RECORD the findings on THE FORM.
CONDEMN all cylinders with valleys that reduce the number of defect-free,
continuous full threads below the minimum (according to the limits defined in
section 5B.), counting from the top. Contact Luxfer Gas Cylinders7 with this
information and findings.
CONDEMN all cylinders with a fold which enters into more than one thread.
Contact Luxfer Gas Cylinders7 with this information and findings.
Inspect cylinder threads for any other imperfections (see ‘imperfection’.G Check
for corrosion (on cylinder thread as well as valve thread, if valve is available).
RECORD on THE FORM any observation of thread imperfections.
CONDEMN all cylinders with thread imperfections which reduce the number of
continuous full threads below the limits defined in section 5B above.
CONDEMN all cylinders with corrosion in any thread that is a required
continuous full thread identified in section 5B above.

There are many other reasons given to condemn a cylinder...

Of course they are refering to aluminum tanks (most notably 6351-T6 tanks) but it looks like they are "authorizing" their inspectors to condemn tanks. They do say this:

WARNING: Before a cylinder is condemned, we recommend:
1. that a signed CUSTOMER RELEASE FOR CYLINDER INSPECTIONE is on file
(and see section I, BEFORE INSPECTION BEGINS, above); and,
2. that a second or third inspector, familiar with this Luxfer Visual
Inspection Procedure be consulted and asked to confirm the condition(s),
which would condemn the cylinder.

They also say:

a. If the cylinder is condemned during this inspection and is to be returned
to Luxfer,7 we recommend, in the U.S.A., to strike out the stamped markings
on the cylinder crown, leaving the serial number and hydrostatic test
dates visible. Do not destroy the threads.
Tell the owner to contact Luxfer7 to make arrangements for returning the
cylinder to Luxfer.7
b. If the cylinder is condemned during this inspection and is not to be
returned to Luxfer,7 we recommend, in the U.S.A., that the cylinder is
made unusable by destroying the threads.

So, are you (well, I think somebody said it, maybe not YOU) saying that whoever does the hydro testing can condemn and make unusable a defective tank without the owner's permission but an inspector at a dive shop cannot?

The bottom line here for me is why the hell would a dive shop send out a tank to be hydroed if it doesn't pass their visual inspection? That's just nuts.

 

[Superlyte27]

You are correct. I think what is going on is the shop just doesn't want to bother with a 1/2 inch valve tank.

What does 1/2" tank valve have to do with anything? Hydro facilities deal with a different valve every single day they run a different batch of tanks. One day we have o2 bottles for medical use, the next day scba bottles, the next day might be Co2 bottles, each day is a different valve. I doubt they care. I'm certain they have just about any valve in existance. It takes less than 5 minutes to swap out one style for the other on the hydro machine

Tumbling a tank has nothing to do with a valve. We fill the tank, plug the hole and spin it.

 

[halocline]

A lot of this is not clear to me. Here's what the Luxfer Visual Inspection Guide says:

(edited out)

So, are you (well, I think somebody said it, maybe not YOU) saying that whoever does the hydro testing can condemn and make unusable a defective tank without the owner's permission but an inspector at a dive shop cannot?

The bottom line here for me is why the hell would a dive shop send out a tank to be hydroed if it doesn't pass their visual inspection? That's just nuts.

All of those manufacturer guidelines for inspection are directed at licensed cylinder inspectors, not dive shop employees. Diver shop employees inspecting tanks are required to have ZERO training and carry ZERO weight with the law. The only jurisdiction they have is over their own compressor.

That said, good dive shops will inspect a tank before sending it out for hydro, and if they find evidence that the tank will fail a licensed inspector's test, they can simply notify the customer and refuse to put their sticker on it. They can't mark the cylinder in any way.

The situation, unfortunately, gets worse with some licensed hydro testers, I've found out. I had one stamp the words "no plus" in three of my 72s simply because he couldn't find the REE number, and couldn't give my tanks the plus rating I wanted. If I had not asked for the plus, he would not have stamped those words on my tanks. This was a blatant violation of DOT regs.

The sad truth is that there's lots of ignorance and confusion in dealing with scuba cylinder inspection.

 

[JamesBon92007]

Thanks, I think I sorta get it now.

I've been inspecting my tanks before sending them to the dive shop just so I'll have an idea of what's what. With one old steel 72 there was some rust spots so when I was told it needs to be tumbled that sounded right. I have two more that look perfect inside so if someone tells me they need tumbling I'll go somewhere else. Out of four old aluminum tanks I only bothered with the two that I thought looked OK. Two others are questionable (6351 alloy) so they are gonna be doing nothing, at least for now. But I thought for sure that a dive shop could condemn a tank as long as they got a second opinion from a certified visual inspector.

So, what happens if a dive shop does a visual inspection and passes the tank and it blows up six months later (such as sustained load crack on a 6351 tank)? Are they liable in some way? It seems like they either have authority and no responsibility or responsibility and no authority.

 

[Aigtbootbp]

Well, my LDS has a new vis inspector so I sent the tank off to get tumbled. Hopefully I will get it back by the end of the month. Of course I will post results here.


Amazing what a shake up in shop staff can do, unfortunately I think this will be the end of the operation. A sudden divorce of the shop owners and restraining orders based on bogus claims is not a good thing for a business to go through.

 

[oxyhacker]

Liability is not a clear cut thing. You can sue anyone for anything. If it is foolish enough the court may throw the case out. But courts can make some pretty dumb decisions when technical issues are involved so putting too much faith in the good judgement of the courts is probably not wise. So yes, if a dive shop (or a non-shop affiliated PSI inspector, or anyone else who puts a sticker on a tank) inspects a tank, and it blows up shortly after, doing damage, they will probably be sued. Would they be found liable for damages? It depends on all sorts of things - how convincing a case they can make that they did a competent inspection - and the mood of the court. Dive Shops have insurance that cover them against such things, but individual certified tank inspectors usually don't. Scary, huh?

Smart inspectors are very careful about what they say on their stickers for this reason, restricting it to vague statements like "Has visually examined this tank and found if free of obvious defects" rather that "certifies this tank to be safe for a year from the stamped date".

It's not really responsiblity with no authority. The inspector has as much power as he or she cares to accept. While they have no automatic legal power to condemn a cylinder (since they have no legal power at all!), they can insist on the customer giving consent to do so before accepting the tank. But by doing so they increase their liability, since they could be sued for improperly condemning a good tank - if they just reject it without disabling it, then the customer has the option of seeking a second opinion. But since visual inspectors are taking it upon themselves to charge money to deliver a supposedly expert judgement on the safety of a critical, explosive, piece of life support gear, its only fair that they should bear some responsibility for the results.

The good news is that tanks don't blow up that often, and when they do it is usually from blatant defects that a competent inspection should easily discover. So if you are going to do tank inspections, you better either be damned good at what you are doing, or have insurance that will cover you if you screw up.

I personally do not feel a one day course is enough to turn out a competent tank inspector, especially if they intend to inspect aluminum tanks or god forbid, 6351. Mentoring - having a more experienced inspector one can consult with - is critical to the learning process, Unfortunately, a lot of the dumbest questions about tank inspection you read on forums like this seem to come from recently certified, non-shop inspectors who are intending to go into the freelance inspection business, where they are unlikely to get that mentoring.

So, what happens if a dive shop does a visual inspection and passes the tank and it blows up six months later (such as sustained load crack on a 6351 tank)? Are they liable in some way? It seems like they either have authority and no responsibility or responsibility and no authority.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I have an old steel tank that just passed hydro but was told it wouldn't pass visual because the interior is galvanized and there were a few small spots of rust.

It's been hinted at a time or two, but I just want to point it out so we are all real clear on what the OP says happened here.

The tank just passed Hydro. Hydro is the street term for "requalification" and requalification of a 3AA steel tank included both they hydro test as well as a visual inspection.

The tank then failed a VIP by the dive shop.

What needs to be pointed out is that a) the two results are in conflict with each other, and b) the opinion of the DOT certified inspector with an actual RIN is going to have (and should have) a lot more weight than an LDS technician with a one day cert on tank inspection.

Personally, I think it is important for the LDS to perform a brief VIP when the tank returns from hydro to ensure it is properly dried, does not contain any contaminants that may have entered the tank between the hydro test and arrival at the shop, and in the case of a steel tank, ensure it does not contain any more than normal flash rust from the drying process. I am even ok with the shop re-confirming some of the results, for example with an eddy current inspection of the neck on a 6351-T6 aluminum alloy tank.

I am even ok with the shjop charging the customer for this service - if they were not brokering the deal on the hydro test. However, I think it's crap when the shop charges for the hydro test as the middle man on the deal and then charges you again for a redundant VIP when they have already charged you once (through the markup on the hydro test) for a VIP.

To then "fail" the tank on that second VIP for what is clearly a BS reason is beyond the pale.

 

[h90]

I don't know for tanks, but for other applications there are sensors which can see rust or holes under coating. 20 years ago they were already used to check cars in Europe.
I don't know if that method is used for tanks as well.