Panic - Split from overweight thread

[Thalassamania]

I take this to mean that you don't believe a fear can be unlearned using reason or logic? You weren't born with a fear of sharks. I would say that by using reason and logic you lowered the perception of risk that the sharks instilled upon you creating less stress on you while in the water.

Yes and the physiological factors we attempt to control. The sudden environmental change may very well lead to the panic but again this is a learned fear. We may not always be able to detect the onset of stressors that may lead to panic but if we could identify/recognize them, we can always control our response to them.

Freediver's got it right. I'd extend that to say that we may not always be able to detect the onset of stressors, but we can detect the onset of a physiological change in ourselves, and in recognizing that, we can short-circuit the process that leads to panic. The ability to perform in that manner comes through good mentoring combined with graduated and well controlled exposure to increasing risk levels, exactly the kind of situation that those who panic easily eschew.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I think it's likely that we all have a point of stress at which we will panic....

Indeed... in our little scenario I'm thinking about, we're still batting 1000, and we've been at it over 40 years... Anyone who thinks they can avoid panic totally is just admitting to a lack of experience. Those of us who have the experience know better than to think we can avoid panic in all situations.
I may be the last one to panic, but know I can't avoid it entirely, and I'm a fearless man, who can beat the dragon back better than anyone I know
Rick

 

[Walter]

Many of you are taking things totally out of context.

Walter, those guys deep inside the wreck that died...well, when you know your number is up in 2.5 minutes....what would predict how you would react? Nobody trains how to die, I advanced that idea to some DIR divers, although I don't think they got what I was asking. The insistance that you can drill for everything is lost on me.

I have never said anything about training to die. It can be done, but it's way out of the context of this discussion. We are talking about training not to die in very specific set of circumstances.

Now that (easily avoided) is unmitigated BS. There are ways to induce panic in anyone, I guarantee. Usually takes less than a minute.

Again, out of context. The first step in producing panic in anyone is putting them in a situation over which they have (or feel they have) no control. The second step is inducing fear. I'm talking about teaching people that they do have control over the situation (a very specific situation) and drilling this into them to the point they have no fear of the situation.

Northen diver & lmorin, panic attacks is a totally different issue from divers who panic as a result of a minor problem that frightens them. Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic I'm discussing.

Storm, you are discussing fear, not panic. Some fears can also be overcome. I would say your recruit would not be a good candidate for diving unless he overcame his fear of the water. A big first step in preventing divers from panicking is to not certify people with an irrational fear of the water.

Pete, where are you finding phobias? We are not talking about phobias, we are talking about divers panicking in situations where you or I wouldn't even be nervous.

DumpsterDiver, if you had been trained in and had confidence in your ability to handle such situations, you would not have been frozen. It's possible you would have injured your girlfriend, but you would not have frozen. You actually help to make my point. You froze because you were in a situation in which you were afraid and you felt you had no control.

If the diver is not afraid of his situation, he will not panic. If we can eliminate fear from most diving situations, we can eliminate the possibility of panic from them.

First step, don't teach people to dive if they are subject to panic attacks or have water based phobias. Diving isn't for everyone and it certainly isn't for them.

Second step, before you begin in water training, require all students to be able to swim and swim pretty well. They don't have to look pretty when they swim, but they have to have confidence in their ability not to drown when they have absolutely no equipment. Allowing people to snorkel a distance instead of swimming does not help.

Third step, teach them to skin dive. Don't allow "dry" snorkels. They should be able to make surface dives. They should be able to recover and clear their mask and snorkel from the bottom of the pool. They should be able to breathe from a flooded snorkel. They should be able to clear their mask at least 3 times on a single breath. They should be able to comfortably breathe through their snorkel with their face in the water and no mask. They should be comfortable with 5 different kicks and how to remove cramps.

Fourth, on SCUBA teach them their skills off the bottom. They should know how to properly weight themselves and should do so. Overweighting is dangerous. They should practice giant stride, back roll and front roll entries until they are comfortable with them. They should be able to fill their BCs orally (I would slightly overweight them for this exercise to build confidence). They should be able to clear their regulators three different ways. They should be able to recover their regulators two different ways. They should always be working on neutral buoyancy with doing other skills. They should be comfortable with no mask breathing. They should be confident with ESA, octopus breathing and buddy breathing. They should be able to exchange gear while buddy breathing. They should be comfortable with removing their gear to deal with problems. Doff & don and bailout should be second nature.

Fifth, they should understand the panic cycle. It starts with fear. No fear, no panic. The next step in the cycle is hypoventilation or rapid shallow breathing. Pete was correct, CO2 is part of the panic cycle. Slow deep breaths are essential in preventing panic in someone who is scared.

What is the purpose of this training. It makes the diver comfortable in situations that frighten most new divers. By training in this manner, we are eliminating the fear (and even the stress) of situations that often frighten divers. It also shows the diver he does have control of the situation. It makes him confident in his abilities which lessens the likelyhood of fear even in new, unexpected situations. Learning about the panic cycle can help him avoid panic even if he is afraid.

Can you take this diver, drop him in a jungle and make him panic? Sure. He hasn't been trained for it. Can you drop him in the ocean with aggressive, hungry sharks and make him panic, very possibly. I know I came close to panic in a similar situation before I controlled my breathing. Will all divers training this way never panic? It's probably not 100% effective, but it's a hell of a lot more effective than the training most get. We can easily do much, much better in preventing panic. That should be our goal, not rationalizing why the inadequate training we see every day is good enough.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Thank you for that good post Walter. Too bad there aren't more instructors like you.
I personally feel that today's average OW training is completely inadequate; unfortunately I keep getting flamed by naysayers for saying so.

 

[Tigerman]

Training to master fear and panic has nothing to do with OW training what so ever, its a complex topic of its own. Its not taught in diving, its not taught in driving classes, skydiving classes or any other sport with inherent risk.
Personally I have done lots of excersises and drills with the specific purpose of reducing the risk of panic and learning to avoid panicing. I have also been in lots of situations where Ive been on the brink of panic and a few where I have infact paniced.
If you have never paniced, I dont think you can even begin to understand what youre being told it feels like or how its recognized, nor learn to controll it.

I also did overcome a phobia for syringes that made absolutely no sense to me or even people i knew. Just TALK about a syringe would turn me greenish white and make me sweat and freeze, make my heart race and force me to start looking for escape routes.
At the same time I had no problem with EOD duty..
No, trying to talk to me about syringes in a sensible way wouldnt do me ANY good, infact it would just get me started to panic.
Less than 1 hour of the correct mental exercises however and I could go back to the doctor without anything but wondering if it really worked and it did..

As more information on this incident has come from people in this thread who apparently know the ones involved, I can start seeing ways this incident "makes sense", unlike what I could see from the first post.
A tragic incident whatever the full story is and even more so because it happened with her friend and children at the scene. I truely hope they get the help and care they need to deal with this traumatic experience.

 

[Walter]

Training to master fear and panic has nothing to do with OW training what so ever,

Of course it does. It is essential to a class that trains safe divers.

Its not taught in diving, its not taught in driving classes, skydiving classes or any other sport with inherent risk.

Of course it is. It's just not taught in the majority of them.

 

[northen diver]

Many of you are taking things totally out of context.



I have never said anything about training to die. It can be done, but it's way out of the context of this discussion. We are talking about training not to die in very specific set of circumstances.



Again, out of context. The first step in producing panic in anyone is putting them in a situation over which they have (or feel they have) no control. The second step is inducing fear. I'm talking about teaching people that they do have control over the situation (a very specific situation) and drilling this into them to the point they have no fear of the situation.

Northen diver & lmorin, panic attacks is a totally different issue from divers who panic as a result of a minor problem that frightens them. Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic I'm discussing.

Storm, you are discussing fear, not panic. Some fears can also be overcome. I would say your recruit would not be a good candidate for diving unless he overcame his fear of the water. A big first step in preventing divers from panicking is to not certify people with an irrational fear of the water.

Pete, where are you finding phobias? We are not talking about phobias, we are talking about divers panicking in situations where you or I wouldn't even be nervous.

DumpsterDiver, if you had been trained in and had confidence in your ability to handle such situations, you would not have been frozen. It's possible you would have injured your girlfriend, but you would not have frozen. You actually help to make my point. You froze because you were in a situation in which you were afraid and you felt you had no control.

If the diver is not afraid of his situation, he will not panic. If we can eliminate fear from most diving situations, we can eliminate the possibility of panic from them.

First step, don't teach people to dive if they are subject to panic attacks or have water based phobias. Diving isn't for everyone and it certainly isn't for them.

Second step, before you begin in water training, require all students to be able to swim and swim pretty well. They don't have to look pretty when they swim, but they have to have confidence in their ability not to drown when they have absolutely no equipment. Allowing people to snorkel a distance instead of swimming does not help.

Third step, teach them to skin dive. Don't allow "dry" snorkels. They should be able to make surface dives. They should be able to recover and clear their mask and snorkel from the bottom of the pool. They should be able to breathe from a flooded snorkel. They should be able to clear their mask at least 3 times on a single breath. They should be able to comfortably breathe through their snorkel with their face in the water and no mask. They should be comfortable with 5 different kicks and how to remove cramps.

Fourth, on SCUBA teach them their skills off the bottom. They should know how to properly weight themselves and should do so. Overweighting is dangerous. They should practice giant stride, back roll and front roll entries until they are comfortable with them. They should be able to fill their BCs orally (I would slightly overweight them for this exercise to build confidence). They should be able to clear their regulators three different ways. They should be able to recover their regulators two different ways. They should always be working on neutral buoyancy with doing other skills. They should be comfortable with no mask breathing. They should be confident with ESA, octopus breathing and buddy breathing. They should be able to exchange gear while buddy breathing. They should be comfortable with removing their gear to deal with problems. Doff & don and bailout should be second nature.

Fifth, they should understand the panic cycle. It starts with fear. No fear, no panic. The next step in the cycle is hypoventilation or rapid shallow breathing. Pete was correct, CO2 is part of the panic cycle. Slow deep breaths are essential in preventing panic in someone who is scared.

What is the purpose of this training. It makes the diver comfortable in situations that frighten most new divers. By training in this manner, we are eliminating the fear (and even the stress) of situations that often frighten divers. It also shows the diver he does have control of the situation. It makes him confident in his abilities which lessens the likelyhood of fear even in new, unexpected situations. Learning about the panic cycle can help him avoid panic even if he is afraid.

Can you take this diver, drop him in a jungle and make him panic? Sure. He hasn't been trained for it. Can you drop him in the ocean with aggressive, hungry sharks and make him panic, very possibly. I know I came close to panic in a similar situation before I controlled my breathing. Will all divers training this way never panic? It's probably not 100% effective, but it's a hell of a lot more effective than the training most get. We can easily do much, much better in preventing panic. That should be our goal, not rationalizing why the inadequate training we see every day is good enough.

*sign*--I am talking about stressed induced panic. Not a panic attack or a phobia. You stated that the onset of panic is well understood and easy to overcome. This is wrong. Question for you Walter. If panic is so easy to overcome, why would you panic if you were dropped in a jungle? Just because you were not trained for the jungle would not be a reason to panic. Also, fear is a emotion and all humans have these emotions. Fear is actually healthy. It keeps up alive and alert of dangers (perceived or real). There is nothing wrong with fear, just so it doesnt turn to panic.

 

[Walter]

I keep getting flamed by naysayers for saying so.

Me too, but if it helps one person find a better class, it was worth it.

Too bad there aren't more instructors like you.

Thanks for the compliment, but I never considered myself anything other than a fairly typical YMCA instructor.

 

[The Chairman]

Just TALK about a syringe would turn me greenish white and make me sweat and freeze, make my heart race and force me to start looking for escape routes.

I get this same feeling when someone mentions a server crash.

Yeah, I think trying to associate this incident with a lack of training rather than associate it with the real dangers of panic is myopic. The training model you wish is a quick way to empty the oceans of 98% of the divers. Good luck with that! You can bash the agencies and all of the instructors and talk about the "Good ol' Days" where they also taught underwater demolition and hand to hand combat all you want. It is completely counter productive to understanding this incident. Scuba Diving has become easier and far, far safer than when I first learned it as a kid. I just don't buy into this elitest instructor crap.

 

[Walter]

*sign*--I am talking about stressed induced panic. Not a panic attack or a phobia. You stated that the onset of panic is well understood and easy to overcome. This is wrong. Question for you Walter. If panic is so easy to overcome, why would you panic if you were dropped in a jungle? Just because you were not trained for the jungle would not be a reason to panic. Also, fear is a emotion and all humans have these emotions. Fear is actually healthy. It keeps up alive and alert of dangers (perceived or real). There is nothing wrong with fear, just so it doesnt turn to panic.

I didn't say I would panic if I were dropped in a jungle. I said, just because a diver is trained to deal with diving problems doesn't mean he can't be made to panic in a jungle. Being dropped in a jungle is not a reason to panic. Fear in a situation in which you believe you have no control can lead to panic. Fear is designed to keep us away from situations in which we can be hurt or killed. Fear is healthy. Fear is a bad thing when it leads to panic when panic can result in your death. Even panic isn't always a bad thing. Fight or flight can help you survive in certain situations. In diving, it is a very bad thing.