PADI vs NAUI

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...There are many different paths you can take to get certified as well as to continue your diving education. It's important that you and your instructor to be are mutually simpatico when it comes to your learning style. This is an area where spending more to get private instruction can make the difference between a nightmare and a dream fulfilled.

There certainly can be a greater difference between how Instructors approach training and the differences between the Standards/Minimum Standards of certification agencies. This is often reflected in the physical intensity and depth of the training program. I agree with NetDoc (what again?) that the key is to manage your expectations and select a training program that is in-line with how you want to learn and where you want to dive.

One example of this (if I may) is my perception of the differences between the diving programs that NetDoc and I run. I believe that it's fair to say that NetDoc offers a professional program focused on the essentials and presented in an enjoyable way. My program however, is structured to increase fitness, is more in-depth (which can be expected, as it's at least twice as long) and employs drills that may be unpleasant and intense for the student (resulting in increased confidence). Many of my students want to prepare themselves for careers as Navy or Commercial Diver, or simply want a physical/emotional challenge.

We prepare divers for completely different environments: NetDoc (Florida) warm, clear and pleasant and mine (Canadian North Atlantic) cold, rough, plagued with currents and restricted visibility. What is needed in one area may be 'overkill' for another. Seek out an Instructor who can meet your needs, in your time frame and within your budget.
 
We prepare divers for completely different environments: NetDoc (Florida) warm, clear and pleasant and mine (Canadian North Atlantic) cold, rough, plagued with currents and restricted visibility.
You don't think these represent our personalities as well do you??? :D :D :D

All kidding aside, different expectations require different approaches. I live in the Dive Capital of the World, Key Largo Florida. I gladly cater to underwater tourists. If you're not having fun and the time of your life while learning Scuba from me then I have failed you. BTW, we get rough weather with currents and restricted visibility here as well. My second rule of diving is that you can call a dive at any time and for any reason: no questions asked! In that vein, I have a thread devoted to this: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/florida-diving/445154-when-weather-gets-sporty-here-key-largo.html
 
I wonder if part of the concern about standards violation in PADI instructors is because PADI actually spends some time working with professionals on minimizing liability, including avoiding standards deviations? I attended a PADI Pro session last year (I think) where the entire evening was about risk management. Does NAUI do anything like that? If not, that could account for some of the difference in thought process you have seen.
 
You don't think these represent our personalities as well do you??? :D :D :D

If you mean that your warm and inviting and I'm cold and near sighted, perhaps at times. Generally however I'm pretty easy to get along with. :)

All kidding aside, different expectations require different approaches. I live in the Dive Capital of the World, Key Largo Florida. ...BTW, we get rough weather with currents and restricted visibility here as well. ...when-weather-gets-sporty-here-key-largo.html

Having lived in the Gulf I know that you can get rough weather at times. But as a whole Canadian Divers would call your waters paradise! The water here can be below freezing. The shoreline is rocky with waves, surf and current. What you referred to as "Sporty waves" here are just normal (4 to 5 feet). I use a boat to dive some of the deep wrecks that the German U-Boats and reefs have left in ample supply. However even on a good day the currents are such that they are just manageable. As far as conditions go, your in the right place!
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I wonder if part of the concern about standards violation in PADI instructors is because PADI actually spends some time working with professionals on minimizing liability, including avoiding standards deviations? I attended a PADI Pro session last year (I think) where the entire evening was about risk management. Does NAUI do anything like that? If not, that could account for some of the difference in thought process you have seen.

As I'm sure Peter can attest, liability isn't contingent on any Agency's Standards. Standards can help establish that the Instructor acted (or did not act) in the prescribed manner, but that action (or inaction) may not necessarily be seen by the Courts as the correct action to take. The Court often hears testimony from Expert Witnesses; who may or may not be affiliated with the same Agency as the Defendant.

To answer your question, NAUI has had liability sessions for its members. In one of the sessions I attended, the focus was on act or omission, duty and standard of care, and reasonableness. As far as NAUI is concerned, the Standards are to provide the Instructor with a starting point, they are to provide training that meets the needs of the diving environment and the Buddy team, so that they can dive in an unsupervised manner safely. As the liability is the Instructor's, s/he is the one to decide what's necessary (Minimum Standards must be met).
 
Wayne -- I'm almost "writeless" now! I never thought we'd see the end of this controversy -- and to think I wrote that after two 20 oz. 'Ritas last night!

To answer your question about "What would I do differenty if I taught through NAUI?" As far as OW is concerned, I'd do what a friend does -- have students do their skill demos in much shallower water than I am currently permitted to do. (This, BTW, is what I sent off to PADI as a waiver request. I received a response that the request would be reviewed and I should have a response within a few days.) Other than that, I am quite satisfied with how the OW class is run.

Re PADI "suggesting" ways for a shop to increase revenue and (hopefully) profit -- good for PADI. In order for a shop to be effective it MUST be a money maker and the more money made, the more it can offer. Profit is NOT a dirty word and shouldn't be considered one. "Greed is good" got a very bad name but, in reality, greed IS good. Incentives (whatever they may be) are what keep people going -- for you it might be one thing, for me another -- but we all respond to positive incentives so they should be encouraged, not discouraged.
 
About the issue of PADI helping shops be more profitable...

A few years ago the PADI shop with which I was associated then invited SSI in to do their standard "Scuba Universit,y" a week long seminar on scuba marketing. I attended it in its entirety. The primary focus was how to make scuba instruction serve the higher purpose of selling gear. (Why do you think SSI requires instructors to be affiliated with a shop?) After the seminar, the shop switched to SSI because it believed SSI was more thoroughly focused on helping shops make a profit.

So why the focus on PADI helping shops remain profitable? Don't other agencies do that? If not, why not?
 
...Re PADI "suggesting" ways for a shop to increase revenue and (hopefully) profit -- good for PADI. In order for a shop to be effective it MUST be a money maker and the more money made, the more it can offer. Profit is NOT a dirty word and shouldn't be considered one. "Greed is good" got a very bad name but, in reality, greed IS good. Incentives (whatever they may be) are what keep people going -- for you it might be one thing, for me another -- but we all respond to positive incentives so they should be encouraged, not discouraged.

As a Dive Shop owner at the time, I was aware that I had to make money to stay in business. That's just a fact of life that we all must accept. There is however the question of what you do for the money you make. What is the value of the product or service that you provide? What's your perception of the quality of the service you provide? Does it mater? If so, to who??

You don't teach to minimum requirements; why? Do you consider this a moral obligation? I know I do. Does it impact profit? For me it has.

I believe greed is good only to a point. If it causes an Instructor to turn-out a diver that's unprepared to safely dive in a particular environment, I'd say that it's harmful. The Instructor had an obligation in-which he failed to deliver for the sake of a few bucks. These Instructors help make up the list of bad Instructors that many here have talked about.

---------- Post added May 10th, 2013 at 09:05 AM ----------

So why the focus on PADI helping shops remain profitable? Don't other agencies do that? If not, why not?

John, the discussion is on the differences between PADI and NAUI. Unlike PADI, NAUI focuses it business affiliate program on diver education. How to increase profit by increasing sales of dive equipment, travel resorts, travel insurance, etc., isn't in the mix. PADI is diversified and addresses the diving business in broader terms. NAUI focuses solely on diving instruction.

In the area of diver education, PADI arguably over-elaborates the training process, leading to the award of large numbers of different certificates. This in-turn generates increased profit (Boat Diver Specialty?).

PADI and NAUI maintain much different philosophies. PADI is a business focused on increasing profit for its owners who appoint ts Board of Directors. NAUI is a not-for-profit focused on diver education. The NAUI Board is selected from its member Instructors and elected by its membership.

Each of us must decide upon which philosophy best suits our needs as an Instructor or Diver. We have to closely examine each organization and its programs before an informed organizational determination can be made.
 
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Personally, I don't see greed as a virtue and I probably never will. I don't think that should be confused with the drive to do your very best at whatever you do. It's a passion for excellence that's engendered when we are small and hopefully increases as we mature. It's part of our character and needs to be cultivated. I know the Boy Scouts do this beginning with their Cub Scout program:

Do%20Your%20Best.jpg

In fact, doing my best is just as important to me as it is to be kind. Unfortunately, as a society, we have embraced values that bring out mediocrity even in the best of people. People are constantly looking for that great deal while often never realizing the effect that those deals have on excellence. The diving industry is a great example of that. We have buckled to fictitious market pressures and priced our classes so low to the point that it's quite difficult to make any money to keep our dreams alive. In other words, it's not the dive shop owner who is being greedy. It's society in general and we have let them back us into a corner that seems to breed mediocrity. Some of us have values that won't let that happen.

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While others are cutting corners, a few of us are still striving for excellence. Sure, we often clash in how we seek excellence and I hope I say this next part without hurting feelings. Some endeavor to keep their courses long and arduous in an effort to retain their excellence. We often refer to that methodology as "Old School" and those of us who reject this method can get rather smug by how we've evolved. Why? Because we seek excellence by continual evolution. We look at every skill with a critical eye to it's intrinsic value. We don't cut out a skill to "dumb down" the curricula as our Old School friends would suggest. We are actually looking to infuse efficiency and even fun into our program. I make no bones about it: my impetus is for my students to have FUN. My goal as a Scuba Instructor is to make my classes a game with a purpose. I learned this from Boy Scouts and it's a famous concept made popular by Lord Baden Powell, the creator of the Boy Scout movement. I stress when I cover my three big rules of dive safety, that the second rule is you can call a dive at any time, for any reason with no questions asked. That includes if you're just not having fun. In fact, if you're not having fun, we need to stop and regroup to figure out why. Fun is my motivator. It's why most people learn to dive in the first place. I like fun and dive safety only increases our fun because accidents and injuries are never ever fun.

But does it really matter how we strive for excellence? Oh sure, it might matter to the individual we are training. Some like Old School while others appreciate my kinder, gentler and evolved approach. :D Mind you, our striving for excellence has little to do with the agency that we have chosen. Sure, we think it does and that's why we chose that particular agency. In reality, we would strive for excellence even if we were doing something else. Heck, I strive for excellence in how I run ScubaBoard. There are a ton of people who gladly tell me how I'm doing it wrong and how they can do it better. Look at all the other forums that have popped up because of that belief. Except for one, and for very personal reasons, I have allowed them to use ScubaBoard to facilitate their launch. Every one of them is striving for excellence in their own way and I respect that. But you know, when they tell me how I'm doing it wrong I stop and listen to them. I reflect on what they are saying and quite often I incorporate their ideas here on ScubaBoard. No, not every idea will work here and some I find to be against my personal values. Yes, I'm sure that one day another Scuba Forum or site will pass me and ScubaBoard will be old hat. That's the price of excellence. You can't stop seeking it and sooner or later someone will outdo you.

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...Some like Old School while others appreciate my kinder, gentler and evolved approach.
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Good post NetDoc. Other than the term 'evolved,' I would agree. But to address this term...

Today many Parents put their kids in Day Care. When I was a small boy, my Mother stayed home and looked after me (as did my Wife for our three sons). Although it cost the family financially, when I look back at it, I feel that a good decision was made. Am I to believe that my Wife and Mother were 'less evolved?' No; our values dictated our decision.

People make their decisions after evaluating a number of considerations. Throughout life we each make choices: how to dress, what to eat, how to raise our children, how we like to learn, etc. none of them are more 'evolved' than the other (although some SCUBA Instructors may think so :)).

I choose to teach diving in the same way that I've always done. The fact that I've set aside the chalkboard to use a computer is evidence that I can accept 'new ways' of doing things. But yet, I see a requirement to teach the way I do. Having been doing this for awhile, I could substantiate my many reasons, but it just doesn't matter to anyone reading this. Every Instructor teaches the way they do for a reason (even if it's to succumb to pressure from an employer). As long as there are Students willing to be taught in that way and they are being trained to dive safely; that's all that matters.
 
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