PADI vs NAUI

[boulderjohn]

Personally I've learned quite a bit from many people that are now dead: my parents, university Professors, teachers, not to mention the works of Edison, Bell, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Hodgkin (the list goes on). Validity isn't restricted to the living.

We are not talking about the validity of ideas. We are talking about current policy. If you want to know how a cell phone works today, you don't refer to the writings of Alexander Graham Bell. Aristotle tutored Alexander the Great, but I don't suggest that it would be a good idea to refer to his writings to understand how Greece is reacting to its current monetary crisis. Plato published his ideals of government, but he is not in charge of any government today.

When you cite policies of 25 years ago and the words of people who have not been in charge for many years in your repeated arguments, despite the exasperated statements of current instructors that you are dead wrong about the way things are, you really look foolish.

 

[DCBC]

Which of those is the case?

What is clear is that you don't want to answer the questions posed. I wonder why?

 

[RJP]

Can a PADI Instructor now change the requirements for certification? Can these be modified in anyway as a condition of certification?

Of course a PADI instructor can tell a student that their version of the course is more rigorous than PADI's standards. The instructor simply needs to TELL THE STUDENT this prior to the student plunking down the money for the class. That and ensure that they will work with the student to achieve any such higher standards.

I guess any such modifications should be reasonable, related to being a competent diver, and explained to the student. "Before you sign up, i want to let you know that the written standards for the PADI open water class allow for certain skills to be performed while kneeling at the bottom of the pool. My ckas is a but more stringent than that. In the class you'll learn about protecting the marine environment and why you don't want to kick up silt, etc... so I make sure my students can do these skills OFF the bottom. Makes sense?"

Your construct seems to be based on the idea that any such modifications to standards would be punitive in nature, and designed to withhold certification. When in fact, the reason to exceed the standards is usually to ensure that the person not only GETS their c-card but is also a better than average diver.

Sure, we hear stories about new students having an issue with an instructor doing something that results in the student not getting their card... but those stories usually involve scheduling issues, capricious requirements, disputes over where gear was purchased, and other nonsense. I've never heard someone complain "My instructor made me clear my mask midwater and I couldn't do it so he failed me."

Why is that? Probably because any instructor who cares enough to include that requirement... cares enough to keep working with the student until they CAN meet that standard.

 

[DCBC]

...That's not accurate.

Here is what the OP stated: "Realizing that a good instructor is the upmost importance, what cerfication agency is recommended... PADI or NAUI." The Post is within: Q&A for Certification Agencies, PADI vs NAUI. Not PADI Instructors vs NAUI Instructors. The OP has already realized that a good Instructor is of up-most importance and has stated so within his question. It's clearly Agency related.

...jaded by his obvious vendetta against the people who rejected him a quarter century ago.

Defamation using the printed word is libel. The statement is incorrect and made without adequate research. I have not at any point in-time been rejected by PADI.

I canceled my PADI Instructor and PADI Facility status as a result of receiving instructions from PADI HQ to discontinue the inclusion of altitude tables, gas consumption/projection and sub-surface rescue from my OW program. As I felt that this would present a potential danger to my Students and such a program would be inadequate, I stopped issuing PADI cards (continuing with other agencies that allowed me to train a competent diver).

---------- Post added May 8th, 2013 at 05:57 AM ----------

Of course a PADI instructor can tell a student that their version of the course is more rigorous than PADI's standards. ...Your construct seems to be based on the idea that any such modifications to standards would be punitive in nature, and designed to withhold certification. When in fact, the reason to exceed the standards is usually to ensure that the person not only GETS their c-card but is also a better than average diver.

First of all, thank you for a courteous response. So that I'm clear, you're saying that a PADI Instructor could include:
- an increase the in-water evaluation to include a swim of 400 M (to evaluate fitness and prepare them for harsh ocean conditions);
- sub-surface rescue;
- examination on tide charts (highest tides in the World);
- etc.
and stipulate these as a requirement for certification?

Why I ask is that I've been told several times by a number of PADI Instructors that the Instructor cannot change anything "as a requirement for certification." I appreciate your assistance.

 

[Peter Guy]

Wayne (as is his wont), a few posts ago asked (really demanded an answer to) the following:

Can a PADI Instructor now change the requirements for certification? Can these be modified in anyway as a condition of certification?

I will confess that I was about to respond with something like "Now Wayne, you know the answer to that and the answer is 'No'." But had that been my response, I would have been WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I remembered something and decided to look it up.

From the 2013 PADI Instructor Manual (actually, this has been in the manual for as long as I've been an instructor):

Waivers from PADI Standards
To request permission to deviate from a PADI Standard, submit a written request to your PADI Office including a specific description of the situation and rationale for the exception or deviation. If approved, your PADI Office will issue a standards waiver that is granted only to you (the individual member) and is valid for one year. Reapply annually to extend the waiver.

What do you know? Indeed a PADI Instructor can teach a class with modifications to the "normal" standards. I'd actually go so far as to state this is a superior concept than my understanding of the NAUI one in that this requires an outsider to determine if the "modification" is reasonable and prudent. At least it is my understanding of the NAUI system that any instructor can add whatever she wants (or so Wayne and others appear to have written) without any outside, independent, review.

Having seen this, I just might submit a request for permission to modify how I am currently required to do the OW 2 dive.

 

[DCBC]

Plato published his ideals of government, but he is not in charge of any government today. ...you really look foolish.

When you are discussing history, it's not uncommon to speak of people who are dead. When speaking of the origins of PADI, it's hard not to discuss one of the co-founder's motivation and vision for his business (particularly when it remains a privately owned company). History doesn't have to hinge on whether a person involved is alive or dead. BTW, it was you who pointed-out John's death as somehow irrelevant to the conversation. It's not.

Who is foolish depends upon one's perspective. If I'm in fact seen as foolish, I suspect that I'm not alone...

---------- Post added May 8th, 2013 at 07:00 AM ----------

Wayne (as is his wont), a few posts ago asked (really demanded an answer to) the following:

I will confess that I was about to respond with something like "Now Wayne, you know the answer to that and the answer is 'No'." But had that been my response, I would have been WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I remembered something and decided to look it up.

From the 2013 PADI Instructor Manual (actually, this has been in the manual for as long as I've been an instructor):

What do you know? Indeed a PADI Instructor can teach a class with modifications to the "normal" standards. I'd actually go so far as to state this is a superior concept than my understanding of the NAUI one in that this requires an outsider to determine if the "modification" is reasonable and prudent. At least it is my understanding of the NAUI system that any instructor can add whatever she wants (or so Wayne and others appear to have written) without any outside, independent, review.

Having seen this, I just might submit a request for permission to modify how I am currently required to do the OW 2 dive.
[/FONT][/B]

Peter, thank you for clarification. In truth, it was your (and others) repeated statements that a PADI Instructor cannot modify the Standards that has caused me to take the position I have. I firmly believe one set of unchangeable standards (the normal standards) for all diving conditions is insane. John has said that they've been changed, but hasn't clarified anything. It's taken years to get this information, thank you for your efforts!

It would seem that you are not likely the only PADI Instructor that hasn't had an idea that modification of the PADI Program is possible. PADI obviously has recognized the requirement for a Student to receive more comprehensive training to prepare them to dive safely in some diving environments. I support PADI's position in this matter. Go PADI!

Hopefully all PADI Instructors become aware of this possibility and make the necessary request to modify their program where conditions dictate. I suspect however that many Dive Shops will not welcome any added expense and will continue to train under the current Standards.

You are correct in your assessment of NAUI. Changes to the program are at the sole discretion of the Instructor. NAUI encourages Instructors to train beyond the minimum, but there are Instructors who don't (likely at the prompting of the Shops).

More inclusive training saves lives. I think that's one point that everyone can agree on.

 

[The Chairman]

You are correct in your assessment of NAUI. Changes to the program are at the sole discretion of the Instructor.

This is not true. For instance, you can't do a CESA without a line anchored to the bottom. If I remember rightly, it has to be 1/4" or 3/8" in diameter at that. You aren't allowed to change depths when you buddy breathe with a student. You must dive with a snorkel unless conditions specifically prohibit it. You can't delete a skill specified in standards. So changing the program has it's limits just like PADI.

But really, NAUI does not require it's instructors to teach beyond the requirements and those who do are the exception rather than the rule. That's true for every agency that I have seen which again comes down to the fact that there is very, very little difference in agencies. NAUI does require retrieving an unconscious diver from depth, but they don't require the student to be able to breath off of a free flowing reg. Now, which scenario is a diver likely to encounter?

Let's be realistic here: most instructors are severely limited by time, economics and resources. There are a few of us who are not so encumbered and it's reflected in the way we train. Most students are similarly bound by the very same issues. There are a few who seem to have unlimited time, money and resources but by and large all of these have to be budgeted. Quite often, instructors will take a shortcut to satisfy the restrictions placed on them or their students. Some say it's done out of greed but the reality is that they are simply trying to keep their heads above water and meet their obligations. No agency accepts or condones this sort of behavior. Unfortunately, it's impossible for any agency to monitor each and every class in order to completely prevent this. They rely on post cert questionnaires and the students to report any violations. All agencies have to deal with this and all of them have devised strategies to ferret out incompetent instructors. Again, there is very little to differentiate between the agencies here.

There is no "super agency". There is no "unsafe agency". There is no one way to learn how to Scuba Dive. What's important is that you connect with a caring and eager instructor who has the highest regard for your safety, your time and your desires when it comes to Scuba Diving. It's not just mostly about the instructor: it's all about the instructor. After all, agencies don't teach you to dive: your instructor does.

 

[DCBC]

This is not true.

Careful NetDoc, to don't want to be accused of using old information if things have changed since you were a NAUI Instructor. In other words, some people would have you think that everything you knew of the organization is worthless (although I wouldn't be the one to say that).

Without picking nits, you're correct, but you miss the essence of what Peter and I are saying. NAUI has Minimum Standards which must be followed. These include some of the things you've mentioned. But generally speaking, NAUI encourages their Instructors to teach past these standards where it's in the best interests of the Student. It should go without saying that a NAUI Instructor can't require a student to dive deeper than the Minimum Standards dictate, or do a Emergency Ascent outside any laid down safety parameters. They can however increase the in-water requirements of Students and do anything not specifically prohibited by the Standards. The test is the same as liability; what is reasonable under the circumstances.

As Peter has shown, PADI Instructors can modify the Standards if a waiver is obtained from PADI. It would seem that this would accommodate different diving environments where the Student may require different skill-sets and/or knowledge to dive safely.

NAUI does require retrieving an unconscious diver from depth, but they don't require the student to be able to breath off of a free flowing reg. Now, which scenario is a diver likely to encounter?

Both. That's why I include both in the OW program. Why should it be either or?

Let's be realistic here: most instructors are severely limited by time, economics and resources. There are a few of us who are not so encumbered and it's reflected in the way we train. Most students are similarly bound by the very same issues. There are a few who seem to have unlimited time, money and resources but by and large all of these have to be budgeted. Quite often, instructors will take a shortcut to satisfy the restrictions placed on them or their students. Some say it's done out of greed but the reality is that they are simply trying to keep their heads above water and meet their obligations. No agency accepts or condones this sort of behavior.

Every Instructor has a moral and legal obligation. Some may choose to soften their requirements to increase profit, or they feel they have to go along, to get along with the Shop they work for. The choice is theirs. There is no place to hide if the *hit hits the fan. The Agency won't support you and it's likely the insurance company and the Dive Shop will leave you to your own means. Personally, I don't take the risk. The Instructor owes the Student appropriate training that will provide him with what he needs to dive safely unsupervised and within the recommended diving envelope. There are no cop-outs.

 

[boulderjohn]

What is clear is that you don't want to answer the questions posed. I wonder why?

Because, as suggested in the post in which I originally responded, I have written countless essay length responses to the many times you have repeated the same charges over the years. I get tired of repeating myself at such lengths. I am amazed that you do not grow weary of it. I will write a couple of short replies because I am low on time.

You say we are not allowed to teach tides, but how do we do OW dives in tidal dependent areas without doing so? I taught two students at Blue Heron Bridge in West Palm Beach in February, a site that is extremely tidal dependent. Of course we taught tides. I am currently diving sites in California. A few days ago I saw a PADI class do one of their OW dives at a tidal dependent site, and the instructor was talking about it. They had to enter through pretty heavy surf, and the instructor made sure they knew how. They had deal with kelp. None of it was in the standards, but if they were gong to get certified, they had to learn about it.

You say we can't teach altitude. I teach in Colorado--of course we talk about altitude. We give students a detailed handout to read before we do the dives, and we take care of it every time we plan and log a dive. All the instructors in our shop do this--not just me.

You say we are only allowed to teach for tropical conditions. Why is dry suit instruction required for classes that will use them? How are people certified by PADI instructors in Canada, Norway, Sweden, etc.? Are you under the impression that they somehow import tropical conditions to their locations?

As far as requiring it as a condition of certification, that is your favorite red herring. Your instructional practices must go back to the 1960s, when many instructors used to brag about how many people they failed. We don't do that today, and that is something you don't seem to understand. Your beef with PADI a quarter century ago, as you explained in another thread, was about the specific number of hours required for a course. PADI eliminated any such talk 20 years ago. There is no time mentioned any more. Students are taught until they get it, however long it takes. We just keep teaching them stuff until we are convinced they get it. It is the same for the specifically required materials and the stuff we add.

Finally, I have responded to your diatribes in this way many times in the Instructor to Instructor forum. PADI personnel read that forum. I have had conversations in which we have talked about specific thread. They know who I am. They know what I write. The article we wrote about an early focus on buoyancy (which you also claim we are not allowed to teach) was published in the PADI professional journal after extensive discussions with PADI about it. Karl Shreeves of PADI contributed heavily and is listed as a co-author. I have not been corrected on a single thing yet.

We get tired of responding to your allegations because they are absurd. They are ludicrous. But you keep babbling on about it, fooling the weak minded who don't know any better. So we sigh and step once more into the fray, as ridiculous a fray as it is.

 

[The Chairman]

Careful NetDoc, to don't want to be accused of using old information if things have changed since you were a NAUI Instructor. In other words, some people would have you think that everything you knew of the organization is worthless (although I wouldn't be the one to say that).

Feel free to correct any false info I have presented in that regard. It's why I used the phrase "If I remember right..." Things can change. I was approached recently about coming back to NAUI, but the reasons why I left have not changed. In good conscience, I cannot teach under their aegis until I see a change. That doesn't make NAUI a bad agency. It makes it an agency that is incompatible with me.

Without picking nits, you're correct,

I might have to add this to my sig line.

Both. That's why I include both in the OW program. Why should it be either or?

Which proves my point: the instructor makes the real difference. I have seen more NAUI courses that left this out than included it. But really, you feel that you've collected just as many non-responsive divers off the bottom than you've had free flows? Wow. I've never had to do the former and yet I have experienced the latter a half a dozen times. I might be a statistical anomaly in that regard, but I doubt it. Moreover, I have yet to meet a newly minted NAUI diver that would feel competent to execute such a body retrieval. Again, I might be a statistical anomaly, but most instructors don't dwell as much on this skill simply because a diver will rarely, if ever, need to use it. That's why the first skill I introduce is maintaining trim and neutral buoyancy. It's one of the hardest and they need all the time they can get to master it.

Every Instructor has a moral and legal obligation.

They also have an ethical obligation as do instructor trainers, course directors and evaluators. That being said, no two instructors are alike. Some are better. Some are far better and yes, a few are simply horrid. The diver to be should choose their instructor, for whatever agency, very carefully.