PADI vs NAUI

[DCBC]

Me thinks that shops choose the agency that think can make them the most money and instructors then choose the agency that is offered by the shop. Shops then choose the instructors that will take the lowest pay. Occasionally an instructor will go independent and then choose the agency they are the most comfortable with and go find the students on their own.

It's an unfortunate situation, but I think that you're both right. There are often more than one perception to any given situation.

 

[The Chairman]

Me thinks that shops choose the agency that think can make them the most money and instructors then choose the agency that is offered by the shop.

I really don't have a problem with a shop or instructor choosing the agency they think they can be most successful with. However, I think agency loyalty is absolutely huge. Those of us who no longer teach for their original agency and are still teaching are quite rare. Often a shop has to be in dire financial straits before they consider jumping agencies. Obviously, agencies use this and do whatever they can with incentives and disincentives to maintain that loyalty. I won't teach for either agency that I know to use those disincentives, so there are a number of shops that I simply won't teach for because of it.

In all the shops I have ever visited, there is only one that I consider to put profits above everything else. Just one and he doesn't even see it! One out of hundreds is not that bad.

Shops then choose the instructors that will take the lowest pay.

I've never seen this. Mind you, I don't think instructors make near enough, but I don't see shops getting fat off of instruction either. Instruction has been a loss leader for so many shops for so long that prices to learn Scuba are incredibly low. Far lower than they need to be. The shops I have been associated with have always been fair in their compensation with me. I know their costs. I know what they charge. I have always been the biggest line item expenditure when it comes to determining their bottom line.

Personally I want an instructor that's not affiliated with a shop. I don't want the conflict of interest.

It's why I'm an independent. In fact, being NetDoc, I have to go out of my way to make sure that I remain the "United Nations of ScubaBoard" and support everyone. I have to be careful with posting negatives about any shop or gear so I stick to just positives. Even then, I have been accused of nefarious intent or partiality when I do because I didn't give them the props they thought they deserved.

It's an unfortunate situation, but I think that you're both right. There are often more than one perception to any given situation.

Tru dat!

 

[boulderjohn]

The difference between an independent or shop affiliated instructor varies greatly by area, believe it or not. I have spent a lot of time in South Florida and been both a student and an independent instructor there. I have been both a student and an instructor in Colorado. The difference is night and day.

South Florida has a lot of independent instructors, and the diving there lends itself to that easily. There are many independent dive boat operators who want to lure instructors and their students to their crafts. There are a lot of dive shops that similarly want to lure independent instructors and their students in for gear sales and rentals. This past year I certified some relatives while in Florida, and it was easy as pie for me to do it as an independent. Shops offered good rental prices to students, and students could get discounts on purchases, even though they were not specifically their students. On many dive boats the instructor goes for free, and they have special prices for students. An independent instructor can get everything taken care of at a very reasonable price.

In Colorado, it is just the opposite. There are very few independent instructors. All shops have more instructors than they need, and they aren't going to offer any special deals for gear rental for someone else's students. Thus, an independent instructor really needs to have a large and costly inventory of equipment, along with all the maintenance costs. The independents I know own their own compressors. The few local dive sites have entrance fees, and those fees can be discounted via a seasonal fee for high volume users like shops. A low volume user like an independent has higher costs for that.

I could be an independent in Florida easily, and I could probably make much more money per student than I do working for a shop in Colorado. On the other hand, I thought long and hard about it, and I decided I couldn't afford the overhead required to be an independent in Colorado. A couple of the independents I know in this state are independent for one reason: they couldn't get a shop to hire them.

 

[colo_diver]

Ever have an Insta Dive Buddy? - Joe's Scuba Shack

as I have gone thru this somewhat interesting and to be honest hateful post, I never saw any one mention no matter how well trained and what rescue skills it still comes down to what the person actually does in a rescue situation

the link to my blog is a true story and both divers claim to have over 700 dives. Food for thought.

 

[DCBC]

... I never saw any one mention no matter how well trained and what rescue skills it still comes down to what the person actually does in a rescue situation

When reviewing this story, I found it difficult to believe that either Gilligan or his Buddy were ever properly trained to dive. Perhaps the Buddy forgot his training, but I find this unlikely.

I suppose it's possible that a Skydiver with a solo certificate could jump off the top of a tall building without a parachute. I do believe however, that even if it was a few years since his last jump, that he would know that what he was doing was technically flawed. That may not stop him from doing so, but it isn't because he doesn't know the rules of Skydiving, or gravity.

Recreational diving isn't brain science. People require three primary things to do it safely: proper and inclusive training (which may be mitigated by supervision), well maintained equipment and the application of common sense. If any of these are lacking, you can't blame one on the other.

Generally people who get trained do so in the attempt to do it safely (the application of common sense). As they have no point-of-reference, they depend on their Instructor to quantify what this is for any given diving environment. Instructors are led by the certification agencies and often influenced by the LDS (which at times eschews the definition of proper training). If time passes so as to place an individual in a situation where they have forgotten, they will likely seek-out instruction for the same reason that they did in the first place (it makes sense to them; they believe that this is a requirement).

I don't believe that the majority of "poor diving skills" are attributable to "forgetting how." I believe that many of these certified divers just haven't been taught correctly. Too many are certified before the Standards of the certification Agency have been met. Too many Divers that are certified to dive "unsupervised" simply don't have the training or experience to do so. It's not consequential that two of the World's oldest and most respected diving Agencies take the same position.

 

[Peter Guy]

Wayne -- I think this is a first -- almost identical posts on similar threads. If I didn't know better, I'd say you had an agenda.

 

[colo_diver]

Maybe they don't forget, but panic due to lack of practice. As instructors we practice all the time, but if a diver gets certified and let's say that they are drilled and taught every skill you want to teach and they now go diving and never take another class or even practice these skills but they dive. And let's say that all of these dives are just no worries nothing ever happens. 10 years later with no notice you now have to respond to out of air. I wonder how many would respond correctly and how many would say "oh@&$&@@"and freeze which would be just enough to cause the issue in my blog. I do find it interesting at how one side or the other most post are. And even the "skipper" and I will write that post tomorrow, came down hard on the buddy, the thing is Gilligan told me this story and he admits he was "cocky" and"arrogant" and lucky

 

[DCBC]

Wayne -- I think this is a first -- almost identical posts on similar threads. If I didn't know better, I'd say you had an agenda.

LOL. If you noticed, I placed the "Please forgive the cross-posting" on the other thread. As you're aware, similar thoughts apply to similar type conversations. I don't have an agenda (other than to improve Student/Leadership training); I call it consistency of purpose...

---------- Post added May 22nd, 2013 at 06:37 AM ----------

Maybe they don't forget, but panic due to lack of practice.

I don't think that this is generally true. Using your example, people don't panic because of lack of Air. They panic as a result of not coping with the stress of running OOA. You don't practice running out of Air, so you avoid panic. What you can do is subject the Student to increasing task loading so that they are confident enough in their abilities that they can pause and realize that they can deal with the problem and get gas from their Buddy. No panic is required.

The same thing goes with most underwater emergencies. You don't necessarily rehearse what to do in each of them, but you can develop confidence and the frame of mind to deal with your anxiety. It's the way the Navy and the Commercial Diving Industry has prepared professional divers since the beginning. Many of the hazards that can occur underwater are not just partial to professional divers; they can occur to anyone recreational or not.

Divers should be mentally and physically prepared to dive. This isn't something that takes a lot of training, as it can be accomplished in a sequential manner, which results in a more confident (but not cocky) diver.