PADI vs NAUI

[The Chairman]

GUE has bad instructors?

Yes, they do. I have heard of at least two that I would never want a close friend or relative to learn from. Actually, make that three now that I think of it. I think your signature says it perfectly:

Just because someone has perfect flat trim and can do a perfect frog kick does not mean they are not a Muppet.

 

[Peter Guy]

GUE has bad instructors?

To (mis)quote an ex-President -- "It all depends on the definition of 'bad.'"

 

[chrpai]

I know a local tech instructor that's not a "bad" instructor but he'd certainly be a bad choice of an instructor for me.

I know others that I just think are plain bad.

 

[DCBC]

I don't think you understand the term. Simply disagreeing with you is not an ad hominem. The argument I presented earlier has nothing to do with an ad hominem. I'll summarise it yet once more:

No need. I've made specific argument based upon personal experience. Your response has been confrontational; you haven't addressed my argument with anything other than hearsay. "Actual current PADI instructors have made it quite clear to me already." So you have nothing to add, but what you've heard others say.... Interesting, I can see why I find your comments so insightful....

 

[The Chairman]

No need. I've made specific argument based upon personal experience.

As have I. Unlike you, I believe my fellow instructors from PADI when they post what they are allowed and not allowed to do.

Your response has been confrontational;

I am not sure you understand the word "confrontational". It means far more than just to disagree with you. I haven't made any snide remarks about you in this thread like you have made about me. I have disagreed with specific points you have made and have made them without any regard to what I think of you as a person or as an instructor. The closest I have come is to point out your obvious hate of PADI. That's not an aspersion or a slight. It's simply reality. I must say that I find it ironic that you try to turn each and every discussion we have into some vendetta I have against you. I don't have one, but I am not shy in pointing out when the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes. You take it as an insult and everyone else sees it as a statement of the obvious. Oh the drama! "That NetDoc is picking on me again!" Put on some clothes and I won't say another word about it! Until then, please stop acting the martyr for being caught with your pants down.

you haven't addressed my argument with anything other than hearsay. "Actual current PADI instructors have made it quite clear to me already." So you have nothing to add, but what you've heard others say....

It's apparent that like "ad hominem" and "confrontational", you simply don't understand the concept of "hearsay". Hearsay is third party, but we have this evidence straight from our fellow instructors right here in this thread. I might be mistaken, but you're not a current PADI instructor. Consequently, your opinions on what is or is not currently allowed by PADI are based on events from years long passed where you were censured by PADI. You are extrapolating that what you saw as true back then is true today and you have deemed that your "informed opinion". Sorry, but that does not make you the authority on all things PADI. In that light, here are what our current PADI instructors posted in this thread on the very subject:

I'm not required by PADI to pass anybody that I don't feel is competent. What I consider as competent is quite a bit more than minimum standards. PADI doesn't have Maximum standards. I have the freedom to raise the bar, before my name goes on the dotted line.

PADI states that a beginner diver needs a certain number of skills in order to plan and conduct dives in conditions similar or better in those in which they experienced under training. PADI has a set 'progression' of skills, but there is flexibility in the way the instructor can run the course. To state otherwise is misleading.

DCBC, you make a VERY big deal out of the "fact" that NAUI allows, perhaps encourages, its instructors to augment their classes. In fact, of course, PADI also allows, in fact encourages, its instructors to augment their classes too. "PADI gives instructors a skeleton -- the course outline and materials. It's up to the instructor to supply the muscle and skin -- elaborate and apply -- to make a whole course." [Drew Richardson] Yes, NAUI is (perhaps) more flexible in this but PADI is quite flexible also. Yes, there are some things a PADI instructor is not permitted to teach in an Open Water class but then, as I wrote, there are some things even you aren't permitted to teach in your NAUI Open Water Class (at least I hope you are not permitted to teach them!).

It's amazing how the same BS gets repeated over and over and over and over again. It's not surprising that DCBC keeps repeating it--he has made his agenda clear in the past, and he is not embarrassed to keep repeating things he knows are not true because he is so dedicated to that agenda.

Did you read Quero's post immediately above this? Do you think all the PADI instructors who have said over and over and over again that they teach gas management and focus on buoyancy are lying?

This statement indicates that you lack an understanding of PADI standards. PADI has both general standards and specific performance requirements. When people decry PADI "standards" as some in this thread do, they're generally referring only to specific performance requirements for individual courses. In fact, however, according to the general standards, PADI instructors are required to consider local conditions and prepare students accordingly. If students are unable to cope with these conditions, they will not pass the course, meaning, of course, that certification will be denied.

To my knowledge, we have detected no pervasive pattern of deceit from any of these instructors. Moreover, none of them appear to suffer from the greed and avarice you ascribe to PADI and their instructors everywhere. So, why not just take them at their word? If they post that this is what PADI requires, let's let them have the last word on that. Since I am no longer a NAUI instructor, I will gladly accept what a current NAUI instructor has to say about them. But then, I don't feel a need to disparage NAUI or any agency for slights against me real or imagined. That's just the way I am. Dive and let dive.

 

[Progen]

:goingdown: <descends slowly>

 

[boulderjohn]

No need. I've made specific argument based upon personal experience.

[Sigh] Once again....

Personal experience acquired a quarter century ago....

....when PADI standards and procedures were completely different from what they are today....

....with people who are now dead.

 

[DCBC]

[Sigh] ....when PADI standards and procedures were completely different from what they are today....

Rather than say "PADI standards and procedures were completely different from what they are today," perhaps you might comment on my statements in Post #195.

Can a PADI Instructor now change the requirements for certification? Can these be modified in anyway as a condition of certification?
How have things changed specifically??? (Please quote PADI Standards). Remember the focus of the OP is the Agency not the Instructor.

....with people who are now dead.

Personally I've learned quite a bit from many people that are now dead: my parents, university Professors, teachers, not to mention the works of Edison, Bell, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Hodgkin (the list goes on). Validity isn't restricted to the living.

 

[boulderjohn]

Rather than say "PADI standards and procedures were completely different from what they are today," perhaps you might comment on my statements in Post #195.

Can a PADI Instructor now change the requirements for certification? Can these be modified in anyway as a condition of certification?
How have things changed specifically??? (Please quote PADI Standards). Remember the focus of the OP is the Agency not the Instructor.

.

I cannot even begin to estimate how many times these questions have been specifically addressed and answered in excruciating detail. The fact that you are repeating them means one of the following possibilities are in effect:

1. You are simply not reading those responses.
2. You are not able to comprehend at the reading level at which they are written.
3. You are deliberately ignoring those many responses and repeating the same tired and false allegations repeatedly in the hope that enough new readers to your posts will be fooled.

Which of those is the case?

 

[The Chairman]

Remember the focus of the OP is the Agency not the Instructor.

That's not accurate. Here is what the OP stated as a question:

Realizing that a good instructor is the upmost importance, what cerfication agency is recommended... PADI or NAUI?

In reality, for most of us, this is a trick question. Neither agency is recommended over the other. What's important is the instructor. For most of us, having the right instructor is the first, foremost and only consideration when it comes to learning how to dive.

Which of those is the case?

I'm going with #3. DCBC is smart enough that #2 does not make sense and honorable enough to rule out #1. However, he is letting is normally excellent judgement be jaded by his obvious vendetta against the people who rejected him a quarter century ago. I would love to hear more of what he really has to offer, but he has a one track mind on trying to ruin PADI.