PADI vs NAUI

[DCBC]

...OK, just what Agencies restrict what the Instructor can teach you? Oh, that's right -- EVERY agency restricts what an instructor can teach you! Yes, even NAUI has restrictions on what you can teach in an Open Water Class.

Please Peter, be specific on NAUI's restrictions on their programs (including your source). NAUI doesn't make restrictions on what I can or can't teach (Buddy Breathing?). They don't even suggest what I am to teach in which session. They allow me the freedom to add to the 'minimum training requirements' which are required for certification. If you have something constructive to say, say it. It adds little to the conversation to suggest a vague comment that "EVERY agency has restrictions."

 

[Peter Guy]

DCBC -- Thank you for asking and I will respond, sort of, but not by statements but, to the contrary, by questions.

a. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to dive to 300 feet?

b. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to ignore the requirement to hydro their tanks?

c. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to ignore whatever safety standards NAUI has because YOU think they are wrong?

DCBC, you make a VERY big deal out of the "fact" that NAUI allows, perhaps encourages, its instructors to augment their classes. In fact, of course, PADI also allows, in fact encourages, its instructors to augment their classes too. "PADI gives instructors a skeleton -- the course outline and materials. It's up to the instructor to supply the muscle and skin -- elaborate and apply -- to make a whole course." [Drew Richardson] Yes, NAUI is (perhaps) more flexible in this but PADI is quite flexible also. Yes, there are some things a PADI instructor is not permitted to teach in an Open Water class but then, as I wrote, there are some things even you aren't permitted to teach in your NAUI Open Water Class (at least I hope you are not permitted to teach them!).

 

[scjoe]

Is the difference what a PADI instructor can require as opposed to what they can add? For example, can a PADI instructor require 12 completed dives for OW certification or a score of 100% on the OW written test? Can they require a vertical CESA?

 

[Tigerman]

A PADI instructor can not fail you on anything other than what the agency standards require, but they can teach you more..

 

[261311]

Is the difference what a PADI instructor can require as opposed to what they can add? For example, can a PADI instructor require 12 completed dives for OW certification or a score of 100% on the OW written test? Can they require a vertical CESA?

Requirements infer the baseline level of skills here where as adding will mean what an instructor can tack on. I don't believe this however relates to the testing example because that would lead to issues if a customer found out PADI requires different and subsequently because of time or success of tasks they can't achieve the "additional" requirements and thus miss their certification. I judge adding skills in this instance under things you won't necessarily be tested on by the agency but may be by the instructor. It is however, not a clause by which you can fail the course because it is not required under the certification you're taking. This is an opportunity for an instructor to provide friendly reminders to practice skills that may not be required by the agency but are still important for safety by explaining the process that needs to be followed to get them into the system. What I believe many agencies have is a system where their instructors have the power to withhold certification if the required skills are not performed to their liking, the only thing is the evaluation must be fair and the party evaluating the individual must have a good reason to back up their judgement or else investigations are started. I think this is fundamentally the most important part about organizations is the ability for instructors to speak up (and be heard) and have course curriculum changed if many feel that x skill is important enough to need to be evaluated on.

I'll also echo what Peter Guy is stating about limits to what instructors can add. Just because drills at certain depths or wreck penetration may be important, you don't want to give them any skills or confidence without elaborating in full which usually does take another full course. I don't think basic recovery and ems skills however class into something that needs to be a separate course because of how important they can be at times. Does that mean a rescue course can't take that to another level? Not at all, by all means there should be a line between OW rescue skills and a course that certifies someone to be a rescue diver. Difference.

Dare I say that CPR and other types of basic EMS skills should actually be taught to us at a high-school level instead of possibly learned through other avenues? I love our EMS personnel around the world but I'd love to not "need" them as much if I knew some very basic life saving techniques that would lower our mortality rate. I'm sure people in EMS would agree that saving lives is the key, not who does it (not counting the narcissist hero personalities that are inevitably around on occasion). That and taxes, these types of skills just seem more rudimentary than say trigonometry or graphing the relationship of some curve in-depth, that is something most of us don't need to use on a day to day basis and if we do, we've usually gone to post secondary and gotten a degree in how to do it.

 

[lowviz]

...//... What I believe many agencies have is a system where their instructors have the power to withhold certification if the required skills are not performed to their liking, the only thing is the evaluation must be fair and the party evaluating the individual must have a good reason to back up their judgement or else investigations are started. I think this is fundamentally the most important part about organizations is the ability for instructors to speak up (and be heard) and have course curriculum changed if many feel that x skill is important enough to need to be evaluated on.

Or you can let loose, freefall, and realize that it is all about what you have learned.

Dive it. Seek further instruction in what you crave...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Is the difference what a PADI instructor can require as opposed to what they can add? For example, can a PADI instructor require 12 completed dives for OW certification or a score of 100% on the OW written test? Can they require a vertical CESA?

I can't answer for PADI, but would like to just say that I believe adding skills or requiring additional dives needs to make sense ... in other words, regardless of whether the agency allows it or not it should only be done if it adds some sensible value to the learning experience. Some examples ...

- Mask clear ... is it sufficient to just see it done? What if the student appears apprehensive, or on the verge of panic when they flood the mask? Is it in their best interest to pass them when they can barely perform the skill in the "baseline" condition of being stationary, with an instructor facing them, at a time when they're clearly expecting to have to perform the skill? How well will they deal with a situation later on if they're swimming and their mask is accidentally kicked? Will it trigger a panic or near-panic response? How "safe" is that? I won't pass a student on this skill until they demonstrate to me that they can clear their mask easily, comfortably, and without undue stress or apprehension. The standards don't specify those conditions ... I do it because it creates a safer, more confident diver.

- Number of dives ... I've been known to add dives to the curriculum, particularly for the repetition of skills that I feel the student needs to work on before becoming certified. Given the conditions I teach in, this isn't uncommon ... there's a significant difference between pool conditions and Puget Sound, and sometimes it takes more than the requisite five dives to acquire the comfort and competence to perform the same skills during checkout dives that the student "mastered" in the pool. Given the addition of gloves, hood, heavy wetsuit or drysuit, and the requisite weight to sink all that exposure protection ... and adding in the discomfort of low vis conditions that are common here ... a couple extra dives is often a good idea to give the student practice and confidence before turning them loose to plan and execute their own dives ... particularly since we don't do guided dives here, and students come out of OW with the expectation that they'll be able to dive unsupervised.

- Test score ... NAUI requires a minimum passing grade of 70%. Bob requires a minimum passing grade of 80%. If the students can't manage that score, it's an indication that I haven't done an adequate job of explaining the material ... and we'll keep going until the student comprehends not only what they're supposed to have learned, but why it's important. In the almost nine years that I've been teaching, I can count on one hand the number of students who haven't been able to achieve 80% or better on the first attempt. Also, with respect to test scores, there are a few questions on all of the exams for the courses I teach that I consider unimportant. I really don't care if the student knows which law is Henry's and which is Boyle's ... I care that they understand that those laws are meant to convey, and how it applies to what they'll be doing. If they get the concept right, but get the names confused, I do not consider it a wrong answer.

These are just a few examples of standards deviations that I feel are sensible, serve the best interests of the student, and generally produce divers who are more competent, confident, and far more likely to continue diving once they're certified. A couple years back I went through my student records and could verify that nearly 80% of those I've taught since 2004 are still actively diving ... quite a few of them still dive with me from time to time, in fact ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[WheelsUSN]

- Mask clear ... is it sufficient to just see it done? What if the student appears apprehensive, or on the verge of panic when they flood the mask? Is it in their best interest to pass them when they can barely perform the skill in the "baseline" condition of being stationary, with an instructor facing them, at a time when they're clearly expecting to have to perform the skill? How well will they deal with a situation later on if they're swimming and their mask is accidentally kicked? Will it trigger a panic or near-panic response? How "safe" is that? I won't pass a student on this skill until they demonstrate to me that they can clear their mask easily, comfortably, and without undue stress or apprehension. The standards don't specify those conditions ... I do it because it creates a safer, more confident diver.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NAUI standards might not specify those conditions but that is pretty close to what PADI standards specify. The following is from the PADI instructor manual:

"Certification signifies that the student demonstrated mastery of all course knowledge and skill performance requirements."
"During confined and open water dives, mastery is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level."

If an instructor is following standards then he will require more pool time and/or more OW dives if his students can't meet those standards. Other than requiring a higher than minimum test score all of your examples of standards deviations are exactly what an instructor should be doing in order to follow PADI standards and aren't deviations at all. Unfortuanately we both know that not all instructors hold their students to the standard of "mastery". That is a failure of the instructor and not of the standards or the agency.

 

[boulderjohn]

Wheels USN has already provide an answer, but I will add....

- Mask clear ... is it sufficient to just see it done? What if the student appears apprehensive, or on the verge of panic when they flood the mask?

According to the PADI standards, this person has clearly not met the standard. They have to convince you that they can do it repeatedly and comfortably.

- Number of dives ... I've been known to add dives to the curriculum, particularly for the repetition of skills that I feel the student needs to work on before becoming certified. Given the conditions I teach in, this isn't uncommon ... there's a significant difference between pool conditions and Puget Sound, and sometimes it takes more than the requisite five dives to acquire the comfort and competence to perform the same skills during checkout dives that the student "mastered" in the pool.

PADI students must complete at least 4 dives to complete the skills to the satisfaction of the instructor. If it takes more, it takes more. The number doesn't matter. It is the satisfactory completion of skills that matters.

- Test score ... NAUI requires a minimum passing grade of 70%.

PADI requires 75%. If the student does not pass, then you must reteach the student in the areas that the test indicates were a problem and administer a new test. The student must get a 75% on the new test.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I agree with you guys, but ... and I think you know this ... these are all examples of things that people sometimes consider as "exceeding" standards ... particularly those who view such as not a good thing.

Given what you see in the overall diving community, it also makes me wonder how many instructors ... regardless of agency ... are adhering to the same definition of standards as you guys are ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)