PADI vs NAUI

[MXGratefulDiver]

A routine look at divers in pretty much any resort destination in the world will show you a fairly high percentage of divers who scull with their hands, bicycle kick in a vertical orientation, kick or bounce off the bottom, and way too often end up having to share air with the dive guide. These are not what I would call good, safe, or comfortable divers. And yet I'm certain that the person who taught them how to dive will claim that they taught the class according to standards. Perhaps they did ... but how well did the student retain what they supposedly learned?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Tigerman]

I think I have to look up something, lol..

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2013 at 03:07 PM ----------

Here we go hehe..
The divers in the foreground is interesting on its own, but look in the background theres a dude with a twin set and some interesting technique
[video=youtube;N1VG6nG5paM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1VG6nG5paM[/video]
Sorry bout the perspective, I was kinda trying to be a bit discrete about it filming under my arm..

 

[Hawkwood]

A routine look at divers in pretty much any resort destination in the world will show you a fairly high percentage of divers who scull with their hands, bicycle kick in a vertical orientation, kick or bounce off the bottom, and way too often end up having to share air with the dive guide. These are not what I would call good, safe, or comfortable divers. And yet I'm certain that the person who taught them how to dive will claim that they taught the class according to standards. Perhaps they did ... but how well did the student retain what they supposedly learned?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I have not dived with a Class and Pool student of mine who has taken their referral and completed their certification elsewhere. I can't comment on how well (or not) they made the transition from pool to OW, especially when there has been a time lag between the two.

I have been on trips where I have been on boats where students are completing their OW dives for certification. It's is "interesting" to watch. Everything from on the knees for everything to free swimming. The coolest thing I ever saw was in Barbados...the student was swimming along with us doing her skills with no pauses. I learned a lot on that trip from that Instructor.

I have had the opportunity to dive with students who complete the whole certification locally. Results are mixed, to be honest, but overall not too bad.

When I have the OW dives I can certainly tell who the C&P Instructor was. Instruction does not stop with C&P. We still have work to do when we get them out of the small, 12 foot pool and get them into the lake. It is one thing to show and tell in the pool about sculling and bicycling....it is quite another when they actually get out and see the ramifications for themselves. There is quite a satisfying transition from OW1 to OW4 (or more depending).

 

[DCBC]

ProtectSharks, I'm not saying that an Instructor can't teach safely because he has X or Y certification. In-fact I've said the opposite, that any certified Instructor should be able to do so. The OP asked "what cerfication agency is recommended... PADI or NAUI?" My reply was that it really depends upon what you want as an individual. There are variables, one of which the OP acknowledged from the get go, the individual Instructor. The certification agency may also be a factor for the reasons I've described.

I continually refer prospective students to local PADI Instructors (some of which I've trained and whom also refer students to me). If a prospective Student approaches me to prepare them for a vacation scenario, I tell them that they would be best served by taking another program. The intensity of the training that I provide is overkill for that purpose. On the other hand, if someone wants a more intense experience, or wants to dive in the local conditions that's a different matter. I do however try to manage expectations and explain my program in detail; the choice is theirs.

It all comes down to what you want. What type of diving do you want to do and where you plan to dive? As has already been pointed-out, different Instructors teach differently. This is likely more prevalent within the NAUI organization, as it is less restrictive.

I appreciate what you're saying about teaching in a Resort environment and in trying to satisfy an employer. Perhaps this too is another variable: the Instructor, the Agency and the Employer...

 

[rhwestfall]

A routine look at divers in pretty much any resort destination in the world will show you a fairly high percentage of divers who scull with their hands, bicycle kick in a vertical orientation, kick or bounce off the bottom, and way too often end up having to share air with the dive guide. These are not what I would call good, safe, or comfortable divers. And yet I'm certain that the person who taught them how to dive will claim that they taught the class according to standards. Perhaps they did ... but how well did the student retain what they supposedly learned?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

can't the same comment be made about:

1. Drivers
2. Lawyers
3. Doctors
4. Teachers
5. etc.......

 

[DCBC]

ProtectSharks, I'm not saying that an Instructor can't teach safely because he has X or Y certification. In-fact I've said the opposite, that any certified Instructor should be able to do so. The OP asked "what cerfication agency is recommended... PADI or NAUI?" My reply was that it really depends upon what you want as an individual. There are variables, one of which the OP acknowledged from the get go, the individual Instructor. The certification agency may also be a factor for the reasons I've described.

I continually refer prospective students to local PADI Instructors (some of which I've trained and also refer students to me). If a prospective Student approaches me to prepare them for a vacation scenario, I tell them that they would be best served by taking another program. The intensity of the training that I provide is overkill for that purpose. On the other hand, if someone wants a more intense experience, or wants to dive in the local conditions that's a different matter. I do however try to manage expectations and explain my program in detail; the choice is theirs.

It all comes down to what you want. What type of diving do you want to do and where you plan to dive? As has already been pointed-out, different Instructors teach differently. This is likely more prevalent within the NAUI organization, as it is less restrictive.

I appreciate what you're saying about teaching in a Resort environment and in trying to satisfy an employer. Perhaps this too is another variable: the Instructor, the Agency and the Employer...

 

[boulderjohn]

A routine look at divers in pretty much any resort destination in the world will show you a fairly high percentage of divers who scull with their hands, bicycle kick in a vertical orientation, kick or bounce off the bottom, and way too often end up having to share air with the dive guide. These are not what I would call good, safe, or comfortable divers. And yet I'm certain that the person who taught them how to dive will claim that they taught the class according to standards. Perhaps they did ... but how well did the student retain what they supposedly learned?

Yes, Bob, it is definitely true that a student can be taught to the standards of probably most agencies, including PADI, and be that unskilled. No question about it.

When our group was getting our article about teaching buoyancy in OW classes published in the PADI professional journal, I had a very long discussion (argument) with PADI leaders about this very topic. I focused one part of that discussion on the specific example of an OW class I observed in which this very thing happened--students spent almost no time learning other than on their knees, and they displayed no competence whatsoever in the rare moments they were allowed to swim. Yet the class was 100% within standards.

Since that discussion, several others in our group, especially Peter, and I have had continued discussion with PADI on these topics.

This year PADI has announced to its members that it will be making significant revisions to its OW standards in the coming year. It will add significant requirements in all the areas of concern, including especially buoyancy, trim, and gas management. We have not seen those changes yet, but this is welcome news. As instructors, we could always add that information to our courses before, and many of us did, but many of us did not. Now it will be required.

Were our efforts instrumental in making these changes? I cannot say for sure about all of them, but I do know that some of them came from us. I was told in clear terms that some changes, including a suggestion from Peter, would be implemented as a direct result of our prodding. If not, though, who cares? I look forward to these revisions regardless of their inspiration.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm happy to hear it. Peter recently taught a gas management class at a shop that, for years, disdained the very notion that such a topic was necessary ... or even desireable ... at the recreational level. Clearly he's had some influence at one of the most successful (and generally well-run) dive shops in our area. If this translates to changes at the agency level, then it says a great deal not only about the efforts of instructors who champion these issues ... but about PADI's willingness to listen to them. Those efforts should be applauded by all consciencious instructors ... regardless of which agency they work for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Boulderjohn wrote

students spent almost no time learning other than on their knees, and they displayed no competence whatsoever in the rare moments they were allowed to swim. Yet the class was 100% within standards.

Just to pick a nit, it is my opinion (and only the opinion of a very lowly and truly unimportant person within the cog) that any such class is NOT "100% within standards." This is a discussion I've had with many a PADI instructor -- the meaning of the phrase "as would be expected of a diver at that certification level." Within the PADI system, what does that mean? What does that phrase modify? I've argued before, and will argue again, that the phrase does have meaning which is that the skills must, at the very end of the training, be integrated into the student's dive. To date, I have had very few people accept MY interpretation -- but not to worry, I shall persevere and conquer!

 

[cbairdjr]

I personally am PADI and SSI certified; I don't know much about NAUI; I chose PADI and SSI because they were available where I was; both have their good points; They both start with an Open Water Certification and as a recreational diver you move to either Master Scuba Diver (PADI) or Master Diver (SSI); to become either a Master Scuba Diver or a Master Diver you must obtain Advanced Diver, have 5 specialties, Rescue Diver and 50 logged dives; the big difference that I see between the two is the path to Advanced Diver; PADI's Advanced Diver certification can be obtained directly after Open Water and you only need 8 dives; SSI cannot be obtained until you have 4 specialties and a minimum of 25 dives. I personally like SSI's path because to me if a Master Diver needs 50 Dives an Advanced Diver should be required to have at least half (25) of that. Although I also like PADI, I don't agree that 8 dives makes you advanced; a lot of PADI divers will disagree with me because they will say it is only to learn advanced skills but I don't agree with that; learning advanced skills would be getting deep diver certified, wreck diver certified, etc..., most people are still learning after 8 dives and have not gained enough skill in my opinion to be considered advanced. Once again this is just my opinion. As far as your question, as long as you feel comfortable with it, your good, dive and enjoy.