PADI vs NAUI

[BoltSnap]

DevonDiver,

Perhaps instead of saying "Instructor training program," it would be better to say "Instructor training system" which would include the instructor course and all prior courses leading to the instructor course. The second point, your coming from the BSAC school and being an instructor already, I am sure that you were way ahead of the game already. If you didn't and just came up the ranks through the PADI system, it would have been a totally different story.

 

[Walter]

I do not agree with everything in the PADI system, but I think it offers enough flexibility to teach according to your own preferences.

Not according to my preferences. My class would violate PADI standards.

I take great pride in delivering quality training and safe divers. I find most instructors work in this way, being PADI, SSI, NAUI or other...

I've seen instructors like that in all agencies as well, but the majority of the ones I've seen do not fit that mold.

 

[MarcelT]

Not according to my preferences. My class would violate PADI standards. .

Just out of curiosity, what would you like to do that would violate PADI standards?

Marcel

 

[Thalassamania]

Not according to my preferences. My class would violate PADI standards.



I've seen instructors like that in all agencies as well, but the majority of the ones I've seen do not fit that mold.

Same here. The scary thing is that there are very large numbers who "do not fit that mold" think that they are doing a good job because they have NEVER, in fact, witnessed a good job.

Just out of curiosity, what would you like to do that would violate PADI standards?

Marcel

Order of skills, buoyant free ascents, choice of texts, choice of specific training materials, "certification" of assistants, skills and knowledge added that failure to learn will result in no certification, for that matter certification comes down, in the final analysis, the the staff's subjective judgement. Over the years I had several PADI certified divers apply for course credit here are a few examples:

1. I agreed to let the student take the written final and pool skill exam, she flunked both.

2. I offered to permit a student to challenge the course by take a swim test, free diving test, scuba test and final written exam. Would it surprise you to hear that he could not swim 400 meters?

3. A student, who was a PADI Instructor, wanted credit for PADI Open Water, PADI Advanced, and a couple of specialty courses. His request was based on the fact that all the course included material that we included in our class and they all added up to a bit more than 100 hours. He also wanted credit for PADI Assistant Instructor and PADI Instructor based on the AI and Instructor courses that we ran. If you want to read the details of the PADI courses on the ACE website, here a link.

He was looking for something like seven credits. I gave him the now standard deal, he did pass the swim test, but did very poorly on the final exam. He was not able to complete the confined water tests. He had the balls to complain to my Administration that that his prior training had not prepared him for either the written or pool exam, that he could not imagine anyone but a SEAL (his words not mine) could pass either, and so (ipso facto) I had to have been rougher on him than I was on "normal" students who took the course(s).

I was fortunate that the President’s wife had taken the 100 hr course a year before (she was a hot ticket, not the sort of thing I’d recommend for most people in their last 60s). She made it quite clear that I had asked this student to do anything that she had not been asked to do.

But he wouldn’t go away, he still wanted to know about the AI and Instructor credits. I told him that that was out of the question since the written exam that he flunked was the NAUI Master Diver Exam (conceptually the NAUI Instructor Exam without the teaching and NAUI sections). Even that did not end it, but he finally sort of just petered out and went away.

 

[oahu_diver]

You'd be right if all agencies promulgated minimum standards that must be met and had no restrictions concerning what might be added, how it was to be added, the order of skills, the number of sessions, the texts to be used, the training aids to be used, and so on. Each of those sorts of restrictions shifts the praise or blame from the instructor onto the agency. Diving instruction has gotten so controlled, so regimented and so homogenized that the old saw about "it's the instructor, not the agency" is not really applicable except within very narrow confines.

So if you take away all the "restrictions" that make a training program, why have agencies at all?? Just let each instructor come up with his own class standard...oh, and BTW, that instructor better be ready to defend that standard in a courtroom.

 

[oahu_diver]

I saw a comment earlier in this thread that stated if the student completed all the requirements, you had no choice as an instructor (PADI) but to certify them. This is not true at all. I do have a choice...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

 

[oahu_diver]

I have a question about NAUI...if NAUI is a non-profit organization, why do the classes cost the same (sometimes more) than classes from other training agencies?

 

[MarcelT]

I saw a comment earlier in this thread that stated if the student completed all the requirements, you had no choice as an instructor (PADI) but to certify them. This is not true at all. I do have a choice...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

I agree. As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely. If it comes down to a yes-no discussion, I will gladly issue a full refund (without a referral of course).

The standards merely state that if you ran a PADI training course, the diver should be certified as a PADI diver and not receive a different certificate.

 

[MarcelT]

Same here. The scary thing is that there are very large numbers who "do not fit that mold" think that they are doing a good job because they have NEVER, in fact, witnessed a good job.
Order of skills, buoyant free ascents, choice of texts, choice of specific training materials, "certification" of assistants, skills and knowledge added that failure to learn will result in no certification, for that matter certification comes down, in the final analysis, the the staff's subjective judgement.

So if you are not an advocate of having standards and using a generic training system, how would you guarantee that instructors teach all necessary skills in a proper way?

 

[Thalassamania]

So if you take away all the "restrictions" that make a training program, why have agencies at all?? Just let each instructor come up with his own class standard...oh, and BTW, that instructor better be ready to defend that standard in a courtroom.

I don't recall advocating that, but that could be an interesting discussion in another thread. The standard that I use as a minimum is much older that PADI or NAUI or even LAC Scuba and yes I'm quite prepared to defend that standard in court, seeing as how it is the only standard that is actually recognized by the Federal Government (and found to be at least an order of magnitude less risky that those of PADI, NAUI, etc.) and that features a 100% safety record, not a single student has ever died participating in a course taught to that standard ... not to mention the fact that no diver who completed that course (with one possible exception) has ever died in diving accident. Defend it in court, easy. Destroy the credibility of PADI, NAUI, etc. in court, equally easy, it's been done many times ... what do you think all the "out of court settlements" are about?

I saw a comment earlier in this thread that stated if the student completed all the requirements, you had no choice as an instructor (PADI) but to certify them. This is not true at all. I do have a choice...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

Then (unless you are being a sea-lawyer) you are in violation of PADI Standards, PADI does not, as I understand it, give you that option, quite the opposite.

I have a question about NAUI...if NAUI is a non-profit organization, why do the classes cost the same (sometimes more) than classes from other training agencies?

Beacause you are paying the instructor for his or her time and equipment not the agency.

I agree. As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely. If it comes down to a yes-no discussion, I will gladly issue a full refund (without a referral of course).

The standards merely state that if you ran a PADI training course, the diver should be certified as a PADI diver and not receive a different certificate.

While I'm sure it does say that, as far as I know (and I am open to correction) you are in violation of PADI Standards, refund or no (but that is a nice touch). That has been stated by numerous PADI experts here on ScubaBoard, complete with quotes from PADI Standards. Look in General Standards and Proceedures, you'll find in bold, "If you advertise a diver training course as a PADI course, you must conduct it following PADI training standards and issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the performance requirements."

So if you are not an advocate of having standards and using a generic training system, how would you guarantee that instructors teach all necessary skills in a proper way?

By having properly trained Instructors ... it is really quite easy. There is an old saw in the diving safety business that runs something like, "Proper training obviates the need for rules and regulations since no rule or regulation, in and of itself, has ever saved a single diver's life." Properly trained divers (and by extension Instructional Staff) do not need a generic program with a crappy textbook, the need minimum standards as guidelines and that's it.

BTW: WorldDiveMap looks interesting, I'll have to explore it a bit.