PADI vs NAUI

[TCDiver1]

I can tell you that using the question of, "are you still diving 5 years after training," diver who took my 100 hour course whould have a drop out rate of less than 10%, quite the opposite of those who took a shop based 20 hour course. Somewhere between those two extremes lies a level of training that will optimize the health of the industry.

I couldn't agree more.

No doubt the drop out rate for the 20 hours class is significantly higher than the 100 hour class. Fewer people are willing to dedicate more hours to something they can get in a lot less time. Somewhere in the middle would likely optimize the overall health of the industry. However, i don't see the current free market system ever heading in that direction and don't feel the system is broken enough to even consider the tougher legislation likely required to do so.

Also speaking to the discussion on "for profit" Vs. "non profit" companies. The terminology can be misleading. Just because a company is "non profit" does not automatically mean they carry some social moral high ground over a for profit company. Many, many non profit companies disperse their income as required to insure they retain their non profit status. Often these dispersement are very far from meeting with the ideals of the non profit corporate mission. Case in point, what happened at Dan a few years ago.

I'm not saying NAUI is in this boat but one should be careful how they consider such corporations true intentions.

 

[Thalassamania]

I couldn't agree more.

No doubt the drop out rate for the 20 hours class is significantly higher than the 100 hour class. Fewer people are willing to dedicate more hours to something they can get in a lot less time. Somewhere in the middle would likely optimize the overall health of the industry. However, i don't see the current free market system ever heading in that direction and don't feel the system is broken enough to even consider the tougher legislation likely required to do so.

Also speaking to the discussion on "for profit" Vs. "non profit" companies. The terminology can be misleading. Just because a company is "non profit" does not automatically mean they carry some social moral high ground over a for profit company. Many, many non profit companies disperse their income as required to insure they retain their non profit status. Often these dispersement are very far from meeting with the ideals of the non profit corporate mission. Case in point, what happened at Dan a few years ago.

I'm not saying NAUI is in this boat but one should be careful how they consider such corporations true intentions.

Good points, all thje way 'round.

 

[AggieDad]

Walter
Not wanting to start a fight but I understand exactly what the poster means by tiresome. The subject of retention came up also. As an instructor we should place ourselves back in the position of the student to see things from their standpoint at times. Let's look at this whole certification agency issue from a newbie standpoint.

I want to learn to dive....yea finally after all these years but where? There is a shop down the street so I go in and sign up. What certification agency? Don't know and don't care...I just want to dive. I take the class, learn, am happy get certified and start diving. I am eaten up by the bug. I learn of this site and come on here and start reading threads by some guy named "Walter and Thassalmania" about how "dumbed down, not as good as another system etc". (Not crediting those exact statements to either of you but just making an example) I now start questioning my training. I check my card and "Oh God NO! It is a PADI card!!!!!
Obviously I am going to die the next time I get in the water. I have doubts because these highly experienced guys tell me that I did a weekend course (never mind all the studying I did, all the reading, asking questions - ahem! reading here I did) I am obviously not capable because I trusted an INSTRUCTOR that might be certified by several agencies but because we used an educational system that is designed by professional educators...I am NOT good enough to dive in the same waters as some trained for hours and hours. Maybe I had just better not dive as much...maybe I better just let the time go a little longer between dives...maybe I better quit.

Diver retention? I am strong enough to visit here and sift the chaff from the wheat but I think that a lot of the internet gurus don't remember that it is a sport that is competing with a lot of others for new people.

Many posts have been made here about "I wouldn't have certified them because they didn't - add the usual comments here...didn't demonstrate a free dive to 100 feet after swimming 5 miles dragging a boat through ice bergs.

I have a very dear friend that did the YMCA training...it suited his style....he doesn't dive more that every couple of years. I started out PDIC and then went PADI. I had some very good instructors and the name of the agency on the books made no difference what so ever (IMHO) but what I put into it by learning on my own, but that is the type of person I am. Tell me the standard is to swim 50 feet underwater on one breath then I will do 100.

So- again without trying to start a fight...It is not the agency but the instructor AND the student. In MY opinion...just like it is yours.

 

[Walter]

Walter
Not wanting to start a fight but I understand exactly what the poster means by tiresome.

I would think you were. So do I - 1. causing or liable to cause a person to tire; wearisome: a tiresome job.
2. annoying or vexatious.

If I found a thread to be tiresome, I wouldn't read it and I sure as hell wouldn't post in it.

As an instructor we should place ourselves back in the position of the student to see things from their standpoint at times.

A great idea.

Let's look at this whole certification agency issue from a newbie standpoint. I want to learn to dive....yea finally after all these years but where? There is a shop down the street so I go in and sign up. What certification agency? Don't know and don't care...I just want to dive. I take the class, learn, am happy get certified and start diving.

Sounds pretty typical to me.

I am eaten up by the bug.

Not as common, but it happens.

I learn of this site and come on here and start reading threads by some guy named "Walter and Thassalmania" about how "dumbed down, not as good as another system etc". (Not crediting those exact statements to either of you but just making an example) I now start questioning my training. I check my card and "Oh God NO! It is a PADI card!!!!!

That's not the typical reaction. The typical reaction is, "My instructor is godlike, how dare they say anything bad about PADI."

Obviously I am going to die the next time I get in the water. I have doubts because these highly experienced guys tell me that I did a weekend course (never mind all the studying I did, all the reading, asking questions - ahem! reading here I did) I am obviously not capable because I trusted an INSTRUCTOR that might be certified by several agencies but because we used an educational system that is designed by professional educators...I am NOT good enough to dive in the same waters as some trained for hours and hours.

You and I both know the system is designed around marketing, not education, regardless of what background the designers might have.

Maybe I had just better not dive as much...maybe I better just let the time go a little longer between dives...maybe I better quit.

That's not what they think at all. Those who believe they have not had an adequate class will look for ways to learn what they've missed. All too often they do not realize their class was inadequate, they think their fears and lack of confidence is a failing on their part and drop out because they never really feel safe. They don't realize, they can gain ability and the self confidence that goes with it if they take a quality class.

So- again without trying to start a fight...It is not the agency but the instructor AND the student. In MY opinion...just like it is yours.

You are mistaken. While that is your opinion, it most certainly is not mine. While I agree an excellent instructor can make a difference and overcome weak standards, I know that is the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of PADI classes are identical with the vast majority of PADI instructors all over the world.

So when someone asks about differences, should we lie to them and tell them they are the same?

 

[Rhenry]

Walter
I want to learn to dive....yea finally after all these years but where? There is a shop down the street so I go in and sign up. What certification agency? Don't know and don't care...I just want to dive. I take the class, learn, am happy get certified and start diving. I am eaten up by the bug. I learn of this site and come on here and start reading threads by some guy named "Walter and Thassalmania" about how "dumbed down, not as good as another system etc". (Not crediting those exact statements to either of you but just making an example) I now start questioning my training. I check my card and "Oh God NO! It is a PADI card!!!!!

So- again without trying to start a fight...It is not the agency but the instructor AND the student. In MY opinion...just like it is yours.

As a new guy I can relate to exactly what you are talking about. After I went thru the class and got on the boards, I felt the same way. Did I make a big mistake? What did I miss in my training? Did I take the wrong course?
Before I started my class the only name I knew was PADI, I have seen it around the world, from my many trips to Singapore, to France, to U.A.E and everywhere else in-between. So I saw a PADI sign and in I went, did I know the instructor, no. But if he is a PADI guy he must be good!!!! I never heard of SSI or NAUI or anything else just PADI. After I walked in the door, I saw many options, many different programs. The fist question I asked was ÅØhat the difference, which one is better and why? What is the cost and what do I get? This was my introduction to diving in the civilian world, all the training I had was military and I was not a big diver then either, it was another qualification I needed for the job at the time. Now it was for FUN and recreation, I wanted to get the best training for the buck!! I asked a ton of questions and soon discovered that at the end of the day there was not much difference between courses. At the dive shop there were two guys there; one was a NAUI instructor and one PADI instructor. I decided that since the NAUI course had an immediate opening, I would take NAUI. When I went for my pool work and check out dives, we had both NAUI and PADI students there at the same time, and we did all the EXACT same things together. Two instructors same drill, they went and did things beyond what either course set as a ÅÎinimum and went beyond that. I felt like I was part of the ÅÇamily and that I had the best training.
Now that I have been diving a few times since, I have learned I have more to learn!!! That I why I am now enrolled in the PADI advanced class, why PADI? Because it was what was available, my original dive shop went out of business because of a family issue of some sort. Now I am going to have a NAUI C card and a PADI c card. Do I care, yes and no. From what I have seen there is little difference other than marketing hype, from my perspective. In the real world, does anyone really care what card is in your wallet? No, it is the same as VISA and Master Card just donÃÕ leave home without one or the other!!
ron

 

[AggieDad]

Walter
I honestly was not trying to start a fight but by your reply you just further solidify what my intent was. On these boards, which within certain guidelines are free to all to read and to post, if one disagrees with a few of the "elite" then they are told to not read them. Marketing? Yes, absolutely! If you as an instructor are not marketing your classes or continuing education then the sport is dead. Does PADI market? Yes, and I hope they do so more. I like to teach.
I was only trying to give a perspective of how some of you come across as "elitist" in your attitude that you know better than the rest of us and if we would dare to question the masters then we are told to shuffle off to our little corner and to mind our own business. Not my intent but you again just did what most of you do.
Read Rhenry's post....it says what most of us say. There is really no difference between the agencies...if there were, then why are all of them members of the RSTC? They collectively decided that they would agree on the basic standards for certification. Can I walk into a NAUI, SSI shop and present my PADI card an be denied further training or would I have to go back and "relearn" all of their systems first? You and I both know the answer to that.
In YOUR opinion, you think that more is required for some areas....fine, but that does not make YOUR system better than another. That is all that I am saying and what others say about these types of threads being tiresome.
BTW, Zeagle equipment is better than ScubaPro...it all has the same relevance when you compare agencies too.
Have a nice day. Hopefully we can dive together some day and you can teach me something. Seriously.

 

[Walter]

Walter
I honestly was not trying to start a fight but by your reply you just further solidify what my intent was. On these boards, which within certain guidelines are free to all to read and to post, if one disagrees with a few of the "elite" then they are told to not read them.

No one is told not to read posts or threads. People are told they are not forced to read threads they find tiresome. Everyone is welcome to read anything they want. Everyone is welcome to post where ever (within SB's rules) they want.

Marketing? Yes, absolutely! If you as an instructor are not marketing your classes or continuing education then the sport is dead. Does PADI market? Yes, and I hope they do so more. I like to teach.

Yes, marketing is important. OTOH, classes should be designed around what is effective for learning, not what is effective for selling. Some ignore what is most effective for learning and concentrate entirely on what is good for the bottom line.

I was only trying to give a perspective of how some of you come across as "elitist" in your attitude that you know better than the rest of us and if we would dare to question the masters then we are told to shuffle off to our little corner and to mind our own business. Not my intent but you again just did what most of you do.

I just do not understand the "elitist" label some of you try to stick on folks who advocate and teach classes that are easier and make it possible for folks to learn to dive who can't handle the fast pace of today's typical class.

Read Rhenry's post....it says what most of us say. There is really no difference between the agencies...

Yes, he says there's no difference. So what? That does not make it true. There are lots of differences between agencies, in how they are organized, how they operate and in what they teach. Their standards have totally different requirements.

if there were, then why are all of them members of the RSTC? They collectively decided that they would agree on the basic standards for certification.

You don't seem to know very much about the RSTC. First, they aren't all members, only a few are members. Next, they have not adopted RSTC standards as their own standards. Those who are members have agreed to meet or exceed RSTC standards. Any agency that meets, but does not exceed RSTC standards has some pretty low standards indeed. The RSTC is a joke.

Can I walk into a NAUI, SSI shop and present my PADI card an be denied further training or would I have to go back and "relearn" all of their systems first? You and I both know the answer to that.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with this discussion.

In YOUR opinion, you think that more is required for some areas....fine, but that does not make YOUR system better than another. That is all that I am saying and what others say about these types of threads being tiresome.
BTW, Zeagle equipment is better than ScubaPro...it all has the same relevance when you compare agencies too.

Better is a matter of opinion, at least until everyone agrees on the goal. Since we seem to have different goals, one style (the way the world learns to dive) will be better for one goal (certify as many as possible as fast as possible) while another style (take your time, break down the skills, confidence building skills, skin diving, swimming) will be better for another goal (easy to learn, learn well, build skills and confidence).

Have a nice day. Hopefully we can dive together some day and you can teach me something. Seriously.

Let's go diving!

 

[jeffrey raffa]

If I were a novice diver and read some of these replys I would find a new sport. Why is there so much contention. Lighten up!

 

[Walter]

Why are you upset over the fact people disagree on various points? If everyone agreed all the time, this board would die. We agree, we disagree, we discuss, we learn from each other, we become better divers as a result.

 

[Standingbear56]

and FINALLY

I think this pretty much covers MHO on this.
Enjoy whatever certification you are have or are getting, and remember "a good diver is always learning"!
Safe & Happy Diving