PADI vs NAUI

[pollywogg]

Nope, I never assume. You know what they say about that.....
Look, everybody has their own opinion, for their own reasons. But, as has been mentioned already by other members, it all boils down to the instructor. At the end of the day, a safe diver is a safe diver.

 

[Standingbear56]

NAUI is Yoshinkan, PADI is Aikiki

In the sense that O Sensi taught Yoshinkan, and the it is, "original," your analogy is correct, but in the sense that Aikiki (I think you meant Aikika) was the original organization that promulgated Aikido and the was the parent organization for the development and popularization of aikido throughout the world (making it more CMAS than PADI) you analogy falls badly apart.

If you had to fit PADI into such a framework you'd have to view it as being about as combat ready as the World Cup IDF International Ranking Competition (an organization that claims to crown the world champion hip hop dancers each year).

Oy, now we have scuba aikido. FWIW, Yoshinkan Aikido was started by a student of O Sensi, Gozo Shioda. As for O Sensi himself, his teaching style changed as he developed Aikido. In the beginning, it was a very rough, hard style similar to Aiki Jitsu. During these stages, he labled it Ueshiba Aiki Budo. He progressed, bringing his style more in line with his religious beliefs and thus Hombu Aikido was born. All the other styles came from this parent style. I guess if you want to compare diving to Aikido, you could start with Cousteau O Captain as the founder and take it from there.

 

[Sirena_Elena]

nope, i never assume. You know what they say about that.....
Look, everybody has their own opinion, for their own reasons. But, as has been mentioned already by other members, it all boils down to the instructor. At the end of the day, a safe diver is a safe diver.

amen!

 

[Thalassamania]

Nope, I never assume. You know what they say about that.....
Look, everybody has their own opinion, for their own reasons. But, as has been mentioned already by other members, it all boils down to the instructor. At the end of the day, a safe diver is a safe diver.

Still, you miss the point. Let me give you an extreme example. I teach a Scripps Model 100 hour course. Due to the exercises we do, the way in which we do them, the number of dives and the order that we preform skills, the course I teach could not be offered within the PADI framework. There is no PADI course, or progression of PADI courses, that approximates our content. I will stack the product of our course up against any level of diver in the PADI progression (including DM and Instructor) and I am confident that the knowledge and skill level of the 100 hour student will, in almost all cases, meet or exceed that of the conventionally trained individual.

So ... is this the result of the instructor, or is it the lack of the limitations that PADI imposes? In reality it has to be a combination of the two, but I maintain that we could not produce divers with the knowledge and skill level that we require if we had to operate within the limitations of the PADI curriculum.

So dial it down a dash, the "standard NAUI course" (there really is no such thing) has run about 36 hours historically and includes a fair number of things that are not to be found in the PADI cirriculum.

The point is that that while all PADI programs are virtually identical, all NAUI progams are not, there are NAUI programs that are no better than the typical 18 hour, two day PADI couse and there are NAUI programs that run 100 hours and include 16 dives, with the "average" NAUI program running about twice as long as the standard PADI couse. So comparing a NAUI program that is run on a PADI model, something that some cross certified Instructors do, and NAUI permits, is not really a fair comparison of what the differences between the two agencies are, it's just a demonstration of the fact that NAUI has been forced to reduce it's minimum standards to a point that now there are just barely above PADI's maximum standards.

As to a "safe diver" being a "safe diver," just look at the Divers Down watch out! thread.

 

[BDSC]

The point is that that while all PADI programs are virtually identical, all NAUI progams are not, there are NAUI programs that are no better than the typical 18 hour, two day PADI couse and there are NAUI programs that run 100 hours and include 16 dives, with the "average" NAUI program running about twice as long as the standard PADI couse.

This statement seems to bring us back to the, "It's the instructor and not the agency" line of thinking. You are saying that a NAUI instructor can choose to do a basic 18 hour two day course like PADI or go more indepth. So the depth of knowledge and training in a NAUI course is determined by the instructor and not the agency.

 

[Thalassamania]

This statement seems to bring us back to the, "It's the instructor and not the agency" line of thinking. You are saying that a NAUI instructor can choose to do a basic 18 hour two day course like PADI or go more indepth. So the depth of knowledge and training in a NAUI course is determined by the instructor and not the agency.

Absolutely! But that is within an agency. Simiarly, with all the restrictions that PADI places on its Instructors the only differences from one PADI course to the next is the Instructor. But if you are comparing across agencies ... that's clearly a different story.

 

[SED]

... it's just a demonstration of the fact that NAUI has been forced to reduce it's minimum standards to a point that now there are just barely above PADI's maximum standards.

Could you elaborate, please?

 

[TCDiver1]

One thing i'd like to clarify from my perspective.

I keep hearing that two day 18 hours PADI courses are the norm. From my experience, following PADI standards to a "T", the fastest i've ever finished a OW course was in the 30 hour range. And that's with a smaller size class that hits on all cylinders all the way through. Thats a pretty rare thing when everybody gets it right away. Granted, some of that 30+ hours could be considered logistical such as traveling to dive sites, filling out log books etc but i see no way to get done in 18 hours even with a small class of super students walking across the street to dive.

The places i have seen the "quicky courses" done tend to be resort areas. These classes tend to skip standards big time and/or do not expect mastery of the skills that PADI standards does require. All in the interest of saving time and making the almighty dollar. I would call classes like this mainstream in those resort environs, not in the rest of the non resort dive world.

One can call current PADI standards lacking in areas, i differ with many about some of that but PADI could do a much better job of policing the standards it does have. Huge difference between some resort courses and most local courses where people live.

 

[Thalassamania]

Could you elaborate, please?

A few searches would turn up all that your looking for, I'm a bit too tired at the moment.
Hopefully Walter will deal with your question, he's got all the details at his fingertips.

 

[Thalassamania]

One thing i'd like to clarify from my perspective.

I keep hearing that two day 18 hours PADI courses are the norm. From my experience, following PADI standards to a "T", the fastest i've ever finished a OW course was in the 30 hour range. And that's with a smaller size class that hits on all cylinders all the way through. Thats a pretty rare thing when everybody gets it right away. Granted, some of that 30+ hours could be considered logistical such as traveling to dive sites, filling out log books etc but i see no way to get done in 18 hours even with a small class of super students walking across the street to dive.

Travel to the dive site and other logistics should never be counted as instructional hours. And I'd only count the first time that they fill out a log book as instructional time. That said, how many actual hours of instruction do you do? Our schedule is 42 hours of classroom (plus an hour for initial paperwork, an hour for swim testing, an hour midterm and and hour and a half for final exam), 36 hour of pool work, eight Saturdays (four hours per day on site receiving instruction, aside from two dives there are topics to be covered including rescue, navigation, surf, boats, rigging, etc.) and two night dives (one hour each), that's 112 hours of actual instruction, not inlcuding travel, paperwork, etc.

The places i have seen the "quicky courses" done tend to be resort areas. These classes tend to skip standards big time and/or do not expect mastery of the skills that PADI standards does require. All in the interest of saving time and making the almighty dollar. I would call classes like this mainstream in those resort environs, not in the rest of the non resort dive world.

While these 18 hour courses dominate the resort market ... here's a course from Michigan, it just happens to be the fiirst one that came up in a google search ([google]padi learn to dive in a weekend[/google]):

Cut from the Huron Scuba Web Site: Class sessions Mon. March 9 and Thurs. Mar. 12 (each 6-9pm) plus one tbd if needed; pool Friday Mar. 13, Thur. Mar. 19 and Mar. 20(6-10:15pm).

Six hours of classroom, eight and a half hours of pool, add four dives required on top of that, being generous at an hour per dive, total course time is 18.5 hours, which I'm sure includes filling out paperwork and taking exams. BTW: Michigan is hardly a resort destination for diving.

One can call current PADI standards lacking in areas, i differ with many about some of that but PADI could do a much better job of policing the standards it does have. Huge difference between some resort courses and most local courses where people live.

While I'm glad that you are trying to offer quality programs, I don't see much difference between what is being offered under the PADI banner in most shops and most resorts.