PADI vs NAUI

[mongodives]

I wasn't trying to state that R/R mask was Adequate, I was just making the point that even if its not a stated task its an implied one.
If one were to look at the NAUI standards and apply the military decision making process, it requires instructors to cover many things that others don't.
Part of MDMP is to identify all specified and implied tasks, so if you look at all the implied tasks required to complete every specified task NAUI requires,you end up with tasks that some agencies don't cover until Rescue level.
Then add to it that NAUI philosophy is to overteach, each instructor is going to add tasks or make the bar higher to pass those that are specified and implied in the standards.

I happen to like the fact that I as an instructor can do things like, not let my students use their masks until after I teach them how to breath from a reg, recover and clear a reg. Or have them do just what you posted.

 

[Walter]

Scubadork, thank you for your touching PM. Bless your heart.

I don't think that is accurate. NAUI requires removal and replacement of the mask underwater, so breathing through the reg without the mask is an implied task. (Meaning it is something that must be done to accomplish the primary task assigned.)

It's not implied. The standard requires exactly what it says. Most divers take off the mask, put it on and clear it without ever taking a breath. No mask breaking scares most divers.

If an instructor was dead set against someone getting their cert I'm sure they could find some justification. Most rules aren't so exacting in their specification that one can't find wiggle room.

If PADI didn't want non-swimmers certified, they would not have changed their swimming requirement to an optional skill in January of 2000. I do not believe you should use the concept of "wiggle room." What's good for the goose is good for the gander, we should apply standards equally to everyone but just for the sake of discussion... If you don't want to certify that non-swimmer, what do you do if they are better at every skill than you or your DMs? Where do you find wiggle room?

If nothing else they can always refund the money and refuse to certify them. It might be against the rules but that is just part of personal integrity.

Personal integrity would mean if you believe it is dangerous for non-swimmers to be diving, you wouldn't teach through an agency that allows it. In the mid 80s I taught at a dive shop. hey wanted to add some marketing BS to their advertising. To continue teaching at that shop, I would have to do a crossover to another agency (I was teaching YMCA). They loved the results (quality of divers) I produced and wanted me to continue teaching for them. They asked me to do the crossover at their expense. I declined because of personal integrity. Because of their low standards, I did want their name associated with mine.

I do know the answer to the exam question. PADI does not permit open book or take home. NAUI allows either, but I would say that a take home test does not exhibit the same mastery of knowledge that a formal closed book test would. How do you really know that the student understands the information. There's a little risk management speaker in my head that says always side with the higher standard - cya - cover your ass.

I'm glad to hear PADI added that requirement. No exams should be open book.

As far as no mask breathing in NAUI, we do mask removal and replacement, so while the student has their mask off they're essentially 'no mask breathing' without it. And we could add in a time limit or blackout exercise or whatever if we felt necessary.

Most NAUI instructors require no mask breathing, but that's a requirement they add, not one NAUI requires.

And for the swimming requirement, I dug out the manual for this one, 'Demonstrate novice level swim stroke proficiency in any of the following strokes: crawl, side, breast, elementary backstroke or backstroke....students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles...' So, my take is NAUI intructors can have their students swim as long as they need to be able to asses students have novice swimming skills. And that's what I do. Swim until I say stop.

Lots of NAUI instructors still follow the old 225 yd requirement. I love SEI's 300 yd requirement.

Walter, I do agree with you regarding the standard if you advertise a padi course you must issue padi certification, but I do think there is a gray area here. Hold on, be patient with me while I explain myself here... All risk management says follow the standards (black and white) and use good judgement (very gray). What is good judgement. It's the hardest knowledge to impart on divers and instructors. There's always that term thrown around regarding skill assesment - "without undue stress" in place of the word 'comfortable' which can be vague. They have to be able to clear their mask "without undue stress", they have to be able to do alternate air sharing "without undue stress". So, I think you could catch yourself on the slate somewhere - noting 'diver not really comfortable' and that would be enough to hold back cert if you really wanted some solid evidence.

Why would you be looking for an excuse? Why wouldn't you apply the standards fairly to everyone? If you like PADI standards enough to be a PADI instructor, embrace them and follow them as PADI wishes. If you believe them to be inadequate, disassociate yourself from them.

But morever, if I was having nightmare visions of runaway ascents and out of air situations from a diver that was exhibiting dangerous behaviour, I could not certify them. When making a decision (this may be quite morbit) I imagine that there's been a horrible accident, I'm in court and I have to defend my decisions and my actions. Imagine I said in front of a panel of experts, I feel in my best judgement that this person was not really qualified to dive but because they passed all the standards as I interpreted them I issued certification.....I'd be disciplined for sure, revoked, maybe worse.

Not if you followed standards. They cannot discipline you because their standards are inadequate.

I have had quite a few students that could take their mask off, take a breath and put the mask back on just fine, then fail when they had to breathe without the mask for the full minute. We also have a 50 feet no mask swim skill that is required. I have had student pass the other two and then fail the swim also. It seems that not inhaling through the nose requires a lot of concentration for some people.

I agree with the point you are making - no mask breaking should be required by all agencies, not merely implied (I still don't agree it is implied in NAUI standards), but I believe you've show us a major problem that exists in your classes. Not to worry, it can be easily fixed.

I've never had a student have more than minor difficulty with no mask breaking. Follow the proceedures in post #2 here and your students' problems with no mask breaking will go away.

when I say anything about going above standards I don't mean to punish the divers or make them do military drills, just a little but what is needed to give piece of mind. I like things to be as easy as possible.

It's only the misinformed who equate additional skills with military drills. Adding to a class almost always makes learning to dive easier.

I wasn't trying to state that R/R mask was Adequate, I was just making the point that even if its not a stated task its an implied one.

There's nothing implied in the standards. Everything required is spelled out in black and white.

If one were to look at the NAUI standards and apply the military decision making process, it requires instructors to cover many things that others don't.

NAUI is not a military organization nor is it an organization of all military and former military. There's no reason to expect any military process to be applied.

Part of MDMP is to identify all specified and implied tasks, so if you look at all the implied tasks required to complete every specified task NAUI requires,you end up with tasks that some agencies don't cover until Rescue level.
Then add to it that NAUI philosophy is to overteach, each instructor is going to add tasks or make the bar higher to pass those that are specified and implied in the standards.

There's nothing implied in the standards. Everything required is spelled out in black and white. Some, maybe even most instructors will add tasks, but not all. Even with following standards to the letter, your statement, "if you look at (deleted) every specified task NAUI requires,you end up with tasks that some agencies don't cover until Rescue level," is still true.

I happen to like the fact that I as an instructor can do things like, not let my students use their masks until after I teach them how to breath from a reg, recover and clear a reg. Or have them do just what you posted.

That is a very good point with NAUI standards. I'd still like to see the requirements raised. I'm very happy with SEI Diving, we have the best of both, higher standards and freedom to add requirements.

 

[BDSC]

Hey Thalassamania,

While it's not a big deal to me really, you gave me credit as the Original Poster (post #120) to some of the things that other's actually posted. (I think it was like the 3rd, 4th, and 5th time your referenced me) The only reason I point it out is because you kind of asked a question in some of your replies and if you are really wanting a response, I can't help you out. (Not that you were really looking for a response)

Anyway, this has being an interesting and learning thread for me more so than I have had anything really worthwhile to offer on it.

 

[offthewall1]

The more I read this thread the more it reminds me of just how bad off the industry is.

With no standardization "newbies" seeking their first educational scuba experience have no idea where to go or what to do and in most cases end up with bad training from bad instructors who were trained by bad Instructor Trainers from bad agencies out for nothing more than profit.

Now don't get all worked up... I'm not saying all agencies and all Instructors are bad... but the percentage of Instructors out there providing inadequate or incomplete training is immeasurable due to the fact that there are no equlivelent standards from agency to agency.

This is just one of many problems in the industry as a whole. Another is the collusion between agencies and their insurance companies to hide (by not making public) any statistics on diver injuries and deaths (which are much higher than reported.) The only place you can get any information at all is from DAN... and DAN only reports that which is reported to it.

I bring this up not to hijack the thread... but to associate the failures of training standardization with the failures of any relevent statistics on diver injuries and deaths. Wouldn't it be interesting to note in the annual DAN report which training agency/agencies the affected diver had received their training from? DAN elects not to provide this information... but they should.

For those worried about PADI coming out with the most injuries and deaths because they train more people than anyone else... that can be remedied by turning the report into a percentage of divers certified statistic.

The reason we don't and likely will never know just who is wrong and right in the training debate is because the agencies and DAN collude to keep this information from becoming public. Perhaps because all of the agencies don't want a b ad public perception of the sport. They don't want the public to know just how dangerous the sport can be.

Now again, don't take that wrong. I believe the sport has the potential to be as safe as DEMA touts it... but only if training standards are agreed to across agencies and only if Instructors are more cloesly regulated. This industry is no different than any other. It has operated without regulation for a long time and it is in a complete shambles.

We now see what de-regulation does in the real world. The scuba industry is a small microcosm of that world. It is an industry which has never had true regulation... be it self or government. It has had a small group of pioneers paving the way and running it mafia style.

The debate over which agency is better is irrelevent. The point is... how can we fix the sport we love before it dies?

 

[rstofer]

The debate over which agency is better is irrelevent. The point is... how can we fix the sport we love before it dies?

What makes you thing the sport is dying? You can't prove it from the PADI training statistics and I doubt you can prove it from total sales of equipment in units (rather than dollars) ignoring the current depression. There are still, perhaps, a million new divers certified each year. That's a bunch!

This metric is reasonably good news for instructors and dive shops. But does it really matter to other divers? We already have our gear, the dive sites are pretty crowded, why do we care if the industry trains only half as many new divers? Works for me!

OK, the problem would be the loss of dive shops. Where would we get air? In my case the option would be a 60+ mile drive, one way. I guess I would buy a compressor.

The DAN statistics show a disproportionate number of fatalities among 'experienced' divers and we all know why. These are not accidents due to inadequate OW training. They may be due to a lack of training but at a much higher level.

As an instructor, you see the training problem up close. My problem with the process is that the marketing folks really try to make people think it is 'safe' to dive in the ocean. In my view, it isn't. Risk can be minimized by education/training but I'm afraid I would try to take it to extremes. I would roll the entire NAUI OW I, OW II and Advanced OW (old program) plus Rescue into one OW class. A diver would have to complete the entire sequence to get certified. Maskless swimming would be lost in the noise in this program.

Is that level of training required for resort diving? Darned if I know. But I believe it is required for unsupervised diving in general. I did that sequence before I even considered leisure diving and my wife and son-in-law have also completed the sequence, albeit the PADI version. In my view, it is the absolute minimum training required for unsupervised open water diving. Even then...

Have a separate 'resort diver' certification if necessary. Set it up so 'resort divers' can't do unsupervised open water dives (prohibit air fills?).

If you want to change the standards, great! Roll the sequence into 20 supervised dives and let's get started. If I were an instructor, that's what I would want to teach. It would take longer but I would be a lot more comfortable with the results.

Richard

 

[mikemill]

If PADI didn't want non-swimmers certified, they would not have changed their swimming requirement to an optional skill in January of 2000. I do not believe you should use the concept of "wiggle room." What's good for the goose is good for the gander, we should apply standards equally to everyone but just for the sake of discussion... If you don't want to certify that non-swimmer, what do you do if they are better at every skill than you or your DMs? Where do you find wiggle room?



Personal integrity would mean if you believe it is dangerous for non-swimmers to be diving, you wouldn't teach through an agency that allows it. In the mid 80s I taught at a dive shop. hey wanted to add some marketing BS to their advertising. To continue teaching at that shop, I would have to do a crossover to another agency (I was teaching YMCA). They loved the results (quality of divers) I produced and wanted me to continue teaching for them. They asked me to do the crossover at their expense. I declined because of personal integrity. Because of their low standards, I did want their name associated with mine.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean to say anything about non-swimmers but instead just a general "There is something not quite right with this one". So if the student did all the skills but the instructor feels it wouldn't be safe to certify the person they could come up with a reason. In the end it is about certifying "safe" divers that won't get themselves or others injured/killed.

 

[captndale]

I do know the answer to the exam question. PADI does not permit open book or take home.

If PADI does not allow open book or take home exams how do they handle on-line class exams? Are these proctored? Maybe on-line learning is the exception.

 

[BDSC]

If PADI does not allow open book or take home exams how do they handle on-line class exams? Are these proctored? Maybe on-line learning is the exception.

Do they allow folks to take a test this way, or do you review the material on-line and then take the test at the LDS? I have no idea. Just curious.

 

[Thalassamania]

Hey Thalassamania,

While it's not a big deal to me really, you gave me credit as the Original Poster (post #120) to some of the things that other's actually posted. (I think it was like the 3rd, 4th, and 5th time your referenced me)

Sorry, cut and paste issues ... fixed now, I think.

The only reason I point it out is because you kind of asked a question in some of your replies and if you are really wanting a response, I can't help you out. (Not that you were really looking for a response)

Anyway, this has being an interesting and learning thread for me more so than I have had anything really worthwhile to offer on it.

Answering questions is always good ... even when they appear rhetorical.

 

[BDSC]

Well, as much as I would like to continue on with this thread for the next several days, I'm getting ready to leave work, go home and get packed, and head to Bonaire tomorrow morning for a week of what I hope is going to be some great diving. Can't imagine it will be anything but great.

And I feel confident that while I'm away, my fellow brethren on SB will finally come to a conclusion as to which is better.......PADI vs NAUI......and everyone will be in complete agreement! (I also believe Michael Jackson only wanted to share his milk and cookies)