So when you say "we" require and "we" are permitted, do you mean "you" as an individual instructor is permitted to require that from your students? Or could one NAUI instructor require his students to stay off the bottom for like 10 minutes while you, on the other hand, may require your students to do it for the entire session.
I have always team taught, maintaining a typical staff of ten, but sometimes as large as twenty and ... that's "we," we've always make decisions by consensus and that "we" had to answer to a larger "we" that included the University Diving Control Board. We keep them off them bottom whenever possible.
In other words, does NAUI have a minimum time for a hover (like PADI has 30 seconds) that a student must accomplish or does NAUI state a student must be able to do this and then leave it up to the individual instructor to determine what they feel that time should be?
The general consesus is that a student should have the ability to maintain neutral buoyancy throughout a dive.
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Just playing devil's advocate here, but if NAUI doesn't have a specified time, then in theory at least, an instructor (I'd personally be surprised if any instructor really did this) could require a 5 second hover as the requirement, making it way lower than PADI's 30 second required minimum? That would still be within the NAUI standard if there is no minimum time limit, wouldn't it?
You are correct, but NAUI never felt the need (and I say this as the author of the only complete overhaul of NAUI's standards that was ever done) to play those sorts of sea lawyer games.
If you took all of NAUI's standards, without instructor options (ie: the absolute bare minimum needed to get certified according to written standards without adding one thing more and no instructor options) then how close would they be?
That's a rather meaningless comparison, as I pointed out earlier.
One difference I have personally observed is that PADI requires 4 - 10 question quizzes and a 50 question final exam, where as NAUI only requires a 100 question open exam, but it can be a take home open book exam. All of PADI's are required to be closed book.
I've not looked at a PADI exam for a while, but I expect that its the same sort of rather simple minded BS that the NAUI exam is ... designed more for CYA that as a learing or testing tool. Am I correct that no one ever fails the PADI exam, the just get remediated? NAUI Instructors can add whatever questions they like to the exam and place whatever demands on the students, with respect to the exam that they choose (e.g., we require 100% on the decompression and reptitive dive problems).
I'm not sure about the new stroke cycle swim evaluation. How many yards does it equal in reality? Is the 50' underwater swim and 10 second float/tread water requirement still there?
It is not designed to be a fitness test, we are not qualifed to test that, what we are looking at is soley watermanship .... and if you can't judge that in the first five strokes, not to mention fifteen, you're in the wrong business.
if I may chime in with my 2 cents....I'm a little NAUI and a little PADI and I do think they are 2 different schools of thought. But despite what my reps think, I think we can align the 2 here.
I don't think that either NAUI or PADI has anything against going above and beyond minimum standards as a cya or to sculpt divers. You do what you have time for and what you're students can handle.[/quote]PADI discourages it in several ways, not the least of which is that you can not require anyting above and beyond standards for certification.
Sure, there is an ever diminishing set of standards, but the one ultimate cert decision for the 2 agencies has not changed. NAUI: ever so famous for would i allow this person to dive with a loved one? And PADI: if an instructor approached any PADI rep with I don't think this is safe or why don't we do this...the rep would say, do what you think is necessary. You're the instructor. Because in PADI the qualification for certification ultimate rests with the instructor and not some slate with checkmarks.
Wrong! Completely and absolutely wrong. If a student has displayed "mastery" (as redefined by PADI) of the requisiite skills, it is my understanding that you MUST CERTIFY them.
In caymans aboard a skiff, I dove with 2 lovely ladies who showed so much grace in the water, but when the time came to get out, they refused to take off their units. They couldn't swim! Now, this was before NAUI revised their swim standard, so I have no clue how someone let this slip through the cracks, but it did. Could they dive? Yes. Should someone have certified students that couldn't swim even though they were good divers? Another famous NAUI philosphy, just because someone can...doesn't mean we shouldn't question if they should.
That was a violation of standards back then and would be a violation of standards today.
So, if a PADI student completes all the minimum standards, but still seems uneasy or nervous - we'd say great, but come hang out with us a little more before we let you off on your own.
If they compelete the skills you are required to certify, but it's nice that you let them hang arround to gain more confidence.
I'm all for taking the bureaucratics out of diving, and putting back in the gut and heart.
Then you should go do an L.A. County ITC.
I call for a vote...
Who's head (ego) on this thread is the farthest out of proportion in relation to the knowledge contained in it?
Please nominate those you feel deserve nomination - then we can all vote later
Don't worry, everyone's sure that you'll win.
I hear ya. As a PADI instructor, I know the PADI part is correct, and as far as the NAUI, that comes from one of their Course Directors. I admit that I never would have believed it if I had not actually seen it done. I agree totally with people here saying that NAUI gives their instructors more leeway, but at least in this case, it may not be a good thing. That's the point I was trying to get across - how close are the two if you compare the absolute minimums - no instructor options and no exceeding any of the written standards. It may be an eye opener.
Safe Diving,
George
It's only a good thing when it is coupled with both a rigerous selection program and a regerous training program ... neither of which are what they once were.
In NAUI, it's very free form. They'd hover for as long as they need to in order to show proficiency. But you know if they were your student all the way through, you'd know if they could hover or not before you go to the 'show me neutral buoyancy skill' in o/w. Plus technically they're hovering through all the touring portions as well, so you're well covered either way.
No their not, they're usually rototilling along at at thirty to fourty-five degree angle to compensator for overweighting, that's not neutral buoyancy.
The way I like to look at it whether NAUI or PADI is that if you screw up you're going to be treated the same. They'll gather a panel of experts from various agencies and they're all going to have the same perspective: what would a reasonable and prudent instructor do? As long as you have the opinion of the masses hopefully your agency and your company won't abandon you. So, I do xyz because that's what larry moe and curly do. I do abc + xyz because I want to do more than larry moe curly.
That's not the way it works. The "reasonable and prudent" part is right and that's where (even if you think you're within standards) most cases get decided.
We still do the 50ft u/w swim in 1 breath with no pushoff and it's a 10 min 'survival swim' (float facedown, sweeping across body when needed to roll for a breath). They have to do 15 stroke cycles showing forward progression and something more fluid and continuous than doggy paddle. But the students swim anyway and they get to snorkel a lot.
As far as buoyancy is concerned, I don't consider fin pivot as much of a hovering buoyancy excercise as an experiment to show the effects of lung volume with open circuit. We do hovers, but also BC ascents (using oral inflation and , and lots of buoyancy games.
That's a very good way to look at it.
NAUI can still give little tests. I mean everyone does checking questions and that's kind of the same as a quiz anyways. I think a take home test, really isn't a test.
It's not designed to be a test, it's a CYA document. If you feel that you need a test (and I do) then you give one (and I do).
btw 15 stroke cycles would be about 50 yards for a good swimmer. But that all depends how swimming ability and size. More adept swimmers will get farther with less strokes.
I still think the swim is necessary to show cardiovascular fitness and to trigger anything bad that may happen before you get under the water.
You are not qualifed to access cardio-vascular fitness, it that is a concern refer the student to a physician or an exercise physiologist, the purpose of a swim test is soley to determine comfort in the water and the level of watermanship, nothing more. If you are adding other forms of evaluation to it you are taking on a significant risk that the swim test was not designed for.
Actually you may be incorrect to a degree. A search of the manual shows only a few skills that either sitting, standing, pivoting or kneeling is written as part of the skill.
CW1
5. Don gear and weight
7. Introduction to scuba
CW2
9. No-mask breathing
10. Mask replacement underwater
CW3
6. Neutral buoyancy underwater (Fin Pivot)
11. Free-flow regulator breathing
CW4&5 have no such language so you could teach two sessions entirely mid water. However Skill Combination 5 pictures imply some 'should' be done kneeling. ie:AAS sharing and equipment removal and replacement.
But there is no real requirement for extended neutral bouyancy, is there? Rototilling seems to be the order of the day.
Actually, I believe you are mistaken. While it is up to the instructor to determine all requirements have been met, once a PADI instructor agrees that the student has met all requirements he has no option, he must certify the student according to PADI standards. Look in General Standards and Proceedures, you'll find in bold, "If you advertise a diver training course as a PADI course, you must conduct it following PADI training standards and issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the performance requirements." Italics added.
Yup.
Before or after NAUI revised their swimming requirements, that would be a violation of NAUI standards. On the other hand, that's been allowed under PADI standards since January 2000.
It's a violation of NAUI standards at either time. The fifteen stroke is not how far they have to swim, its the time that they have to deplay their ability to swim.
