PADI vs NAUI

[cflJason]

"But there is no real requirement for extended neutral bouyancy, is there? Rototilling seems to be the order of the day."

I think if you want to use this argument then you basically have thrown your "I can raise the standards in NAUI and have an entire pool session of neutral buoyancy " argument out the window. As far as I can tell from all the posts, there is no real requirement for extended neutral buoyancy in the NAUI standards either. This brings us back to "It's the instructor" that makes the difference.

 

[Walter]

I think a non swimmer would be hard pressed to pass either the 200 yard swim or the 300 yard Mask, Snorkel & Fin evaluation.

I would agree if you were just talking about the 200yd swim, but when you allow the 300 yd snorkel, it becomes a piece of cake for a non-swimmer. I taught myself to swim as an adult. Prior to that, I could easily snorkel 300 yds.

IMHO, it would take a pretty poor instructor of any agency not to see there was something wrong somewhere.

It wouldn't matter. As long as I can snorkel the 300 yds and pass the other requirements, you'd have to certify me.

It's a violation of NAUI standards at either time.

Yep, that's what I said.

 

[novicediver]

Both NAUI and PADI suck

 

[Walter]

Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel.

 

[mongodives]

I read in one of the earlier post, "NAUI doesn't require no mask breathing".

I don't think that is accurate. NAUI requires removal and replacement of the mask underwater, so breathing through the reg without the mask is an implied task. (Meaning it is something that must be done to accomplish the primary task assigned.)

 

[mikemill]

It wouldn't matter. As long as I can snorkel the 300 yds and pass the other requirements, you'd have to certify me.

If an instructor was dead set against someone getting their cert I'm sure they could find some justification. Most rules aren't so exacting in their specification that one can't find wiggle room.

If nothing else they can always refund the money and refuse to certify them. It might be against the rules but that is just part of personal integrity.

 

[Sirena_Elena]

Yes.



They are far apart in some areas, pretty close in others. PADI requires at least one skill that's never mentioned in NAUI's standards - no mask breathing.



I've yet to see where PADI's standards require the exam to be closed book. Where is that?



It's a joke, but at least it requires some swimming. PADI has a swimming option, but no swimming requirement.



Yes.



I've never found in the standards of either where it mentions open or closed book.



Actually, I believe you are mistaken. While it is up to the instructor to determine all requirements have been met, once a PADI instructor agrees that the student has met all requirements he has no option, he must certify the student according to PADI standards. Look in General Standards and Proceedures, you'll find in bold, "If you advertise a diver training course as a PADI course, you must conduct it following PADI training standards and issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the performance requirements." Italics added.



Before or after NAUI revised their swimming requirements, that would be a violation of NAUI standards. On the other hand, that's been allowed under PADI standards since January 2000.

I do know the answer to the exam question. PADI does not permit open book or take home. NAUI allows either, but I would say that a take home test does not exhibit the same mastery of knowledge that a formal closed book test would. How do you really know that the student understands the information. There's a little risk management speaker in my head that says always side with the higher standard - cya - cover your ass.

As far as no mask breathing in NAUI, we do mask removal and replacement, so while the student has their mask off they're essentially 'no mask breathing' without it. And we could add in a time limit or blackout exercise or whatever if we felt necessary.

And for the swimming requirement, I dug out the manual for this one, 'Demonstrate novice level swim stroke proficiency in any of the following strokes: crawl, side, breast, elementary backstroke or backstroke....students shall complete at least 15 continuous stroke cycles...' So, my take is NAUI intructors can have their students swim as long as they need to be able to asses students have novice swimming skills. And that's what I do. Swim until I say stop.

Walter, I do agree with you regarding the standard if you advertise a padi course you must issue padi certification, but I do think there is a gray area here. Hold on, be patient with me while I explain myself here... All risk management says follow the standards (black and white) and use good judgement (very gray). What is good judgement. It's the hardest knowledge to impart on divers and instructors. There's always that term thrown around regarding skill assesment - "without undue stress" in place of the word 'comfortable' which can be vague. They have to be able to clear their mask "without undue stress", they have to be able to do alternate air sharing "without undue stress". So, I think you could catch yourself on the slate somewhere - noting 'diver not really comfortable' and that would be enough to hold back cert if you really wanted some solid evidence.

But morever, if I was having nightmare visions of runaway ascents and out of air situations from a diver that was exhibiting dangerous behaviour, I could not certify them. When making a decision (this may be quite morbit) I imagine that there's been a horrible accident, I'm in court and I have to defend my decisions and my actions. Imagine I said in front of a panel of experts, I feel in my best judgement that this person was not really qualified to dive but because they passed all the standards as I interpreted them I issued certification.....I'd be disciplined for sure, revoked, maybe worse.

 

[cflJason]

I read in one of the earlier post, "NAUI doesn't require no mask breathing".

I don't think that is accurate. NAUI requires removal and replacement of the mask underwater, so breathing through the reg without the mask is an implied task. (Meaning it is something that must be done to accomplish the primary task assigned.)

I have had quite a few students that could take their mask off, take a breath and put the mask back on just fine, then fail when they had to breathe without the mask for the full minute. We also have a 50 feet no mask swim skill that is required. I have had student pass the other two and then fail the swim also. It seems that not inhaling through the nose requires a lot of concentration for some people.

 

[Sirena_Elena]

btw, when I say anything about going above standards I don't mean to punish the divers or make them do military drills, just a little but what is needed to give piece of mind. I like things to be as easy as possible.

 

[Thalassamania]

"But there is no real requirement for extended neutral bouyancy, is there? Rototilling seems to be the order of the day."

I think if you want to use this argument then you basically have thrown your "I can raise the standards in NAUI and have an entire pool session of neutral buoyancy " argument out the window. As far as I can tell from all the posts, there is no real requirement for extended neutral buoyancy in the NAUI standards either. This brings us back to "It's the instructor" that makes the difference.

Within each agency that's true, but a PADI instructor can not add a requirement to make a dive with effective buoyancy control and no rototilling, a NAUI instructor can and should.

Both NAUI and PADI suck

I agree, but you must admit that most of what sucks about NAUI is where it has slavishly attempted to copy PADI rather than having the guts to offer an alternative with high enough standards to make the the difference crystal clear rather than the muddy discussion we are having now.

I read in one of the earlier post, "NAUI doesn't require no mask breathing".

I don't think that is accurate. NAUI requires removal and replacement of the mask underwater, so breathing through the reg without the mask is an implied task. (Meaning it is something that must be done to accomplish the primary task assigned.)

Remove and replace is not adequate, a diver should demonstrate the ability to calmly abort a dive and surface while sharing air, with no mask.

If an instructor was dead set against someone getting their cert I'm sure they could find some justification. Most rules aren't so exacting in their specification that one can't find wiggle room.

If nothing else they can always refund the money and refuse to certify them. It might be against the rules but that is just part of personal integrity.

That's not really the point though ... is it?

I do know the answer to the exam question. PADI does not permit open book or take home. NAUI allows either, but I would say that a take home test does not exhibit the same mastery of knowledge that a formal closed book test would. How do you really know that the student understands the information. There's a little risk management speaker in my head that says always side with the higher standard - cya - cover your ass.

As one whose job was risk managemnent permit me to assure you that from a risk management perspective the lower standard, as long as it is "acceptable" and clearly documentable is often preferable. But be that as it may, you'd need to do a question by question comparsion between the two exams to determine which is more effective (e.g., which is a more comprenensive exam, the PSAT or the GRE?). Also conside that a NAUI exam is only intended to be a CYA document, you're free to add to it in any format that you desire.

... But morever, if I was having nightmare visions of runaway ascents and out of air situations from a diver that was exhibiting dangerous behaviour, I could not certify them. When making a decision (this may be quite morbit) I imagine that there's been a horrible accident, I'm in court and I have to defend my decisions and my actions. Imagine I said in front of a panel of experts, I feel in my best judgement that this person was not really qualified to dive but because they passed all the standards as I interpreted them I issued certification.....I'd be disciplined for sure, revoked, maybe worse.

Actually no, the agency, since it is forced to defend you would never discipline you in any way ... that would be an admision of your neglegence, something that is never forthcoming, even in the grossest circumstances.

btw, when I say anything about going above standards I don't mean to punish the divers or make them do military drills, just a little but what is needed to give piece of mind. I like things to be as easy as possible.

You ave clearly forbidden to "go above standards" if the addition is to have any influence on the decision to certify. As a PADI Instructor you are required to certify that the student met PADI standards, nothing more and nothing less, as a NAUI Instructor you are required to certify that the student met NAUI standards and anything else that you felt was important as a result of local conditions and situations.